French Immersion
 

Does anyone have any personal experiences with putting their kids through a Canadian French Immersion programme?

My 5 year old son is due to start in an SK FI programme in September and I'm curious to see what we might expect.

I'm very keen on giving him the chance to be bilingual and I'm looking forward to brushing up on my own very rusty French at the same time! But are the any pitfalls or unexpected consequences to taking this route?

Re: French Immersion
 

Not immersion but my children went to the college francais at College and Jarvis. I suppose the only real surprise for me was discovering how many francophones there are in Toronto and what a wide range of countries they come from.

Re: French Immersion
 

When I read that I thought you meant an FI programme in Saskatchewan.

WTF I thought. Why bother?

But if in fact you meant a Senior Kindergarten FI programme in Toronto, then go for it IMHO.

Re: French Immersion
 

Yep, that's what I meant. Overuse of acronyms!

Re: French Immersion
 

If my children were to learn third language since they are bilingual, it would be Spanish.

Re: French Immersion
 

Some children do have problems in that their ability in English is not as well developed as their facility in French, and is lower than the ability of children who did not do French Immersion. Many more have no problems at all.

I'd opt for a Chinese language in Vancouver :lol:


FYI .......

like Novocastrian .....


acronyms ............ bah humbug!!!

Re: French Immersion
 

I believe the research suggests that if your child is an academically high achiever then adding a second language through immersion provides much needed enrichment. If your child is not, they often struggle at both languages and by the time they move into grade four or five they're significantly behind. How do you know if early immersion is right for your child? At that age only your experience with them will tell you how they might handle it.

Re: French Immersion
 

Great question. Obviously we're biased, but his language ability seems to be very good and he's a smart kid. He has a wide vocabulary and talks non stop, all day ...drives us insane actually.

So on that basis we think he's a good fit. But only time will tell. It's just hard to get your head around a concept like French Immersion, seeing as nothing like this exists in the UK state school system.

Re: French Immersion
 

You said he is five, does he read yet and if so, how well?

Re: French Immersion
 

Yes can can read a little, I haven't really thought about how he compares with others.

Re: French Immersion
 

I was just curious how much English reading he's had. It's not terribly important either way. Just stay on top of his learning development and if at anytime you feel it's not beneficial take him out of the programme. Good luck.

Re: French Immersion
 

We have 2 kids now age 20 and 16. They both did french immersion starting at SK and the 20 year old (female) is specializing in french language studies at university (a bi-lingual college in Toronto part of York University) but is in the south of France right now doing a year of university there amongst french students. She seems to have thrived there.

Sixteen year old boy is in french immersion/gifted programme at high school and doesn't enjoy french as much but realizes the importance of it here in Ottawa. At Christmas time his french while were in France really impressed my wife and I.

I have very rusty french but understand more than I can speak. Wife is the same despite being born in Shawinigan (moved to Ontario when she was 2. Anglophone parents).

It can only open doors for your children although not sure how relevant french in in the GTA. Mandarin, hindi, tagalog, arabic, urdu, persian, tamil are probably more applicable.

One downfall to consider is if your kids go to french immersion they are not always guaranteed to be able to walk to school and friendships with kids on the street are harder to maintain if your kids school is a bus ride etc away.

Re: French Immersion
 

Well, no. Firstly, one frequently sees jobs in the GTA advertised wanting bilingual applicants, bilingual that is, in English and French. One does not see jobs advertised for people bilingual in Urdu and Tagalog (although, if there were such adverts, I admit that I wouldn't be able to read them anyway). Secondly, the languages cited are those of specific cultural minorities, knowing the language doesn't make you part of that minority; speaking Tamil doesn't make you a Tiger. In the context of the GTA, speaking the language is an amusing novelty and no more.

A bilingual child of mine has managed to work in French in part time jobs through university and to obtain a permanent job based, in part, on her bilingualism. In Vancouver. If bilingualism is an advantage in Vancouver, not the world's most diverse nor francophone city, it must be in the GTA.

Re: French Immersion
 

I'm always a bit dubious of 'immersion' if you aren't living in a bi-lingual society. My son was born in France, attended KG from age 3 and then went through Primary there. Certainly at age 6 I was worried about his 'Phonics' as he didn't sound like the rest of the class. I, and he, lived an all French life, on a daily basis until the end of Primary when he was 11.

Now, aged 16, and having been in a French School, no immersion, just French, for the past 4 years, he is happy to study in either French or English. I don't think of him as bi-lingual, he just speaks French much better than most of his fellow students. His English has improved no end since moving to Canada.

Now, when his learning has been taken out of my hands...I can encourage, but I can't force... I realize that I probably over thought the whole thing - I've grown a nice, entertaining, kind and pleasant individual, and that is surely a cause for celebration. He is also getting 'A' in every subject, but he tells me that's because we are in NB and in TO it would only be a 'B'.

He thinks I've screwed him up because he speaks English like Mary Poppins and French like a Sapier Pompier and switches the accents at the drop of a hat...hearing him say the words 'France', 'can't, 'Tomato' and 'Banana' in mixed company, is a revelation!

Life with a young learner is enlightening, try to enjoy it and don't sweat it too much...

Very best of luck

Re: French Immersion
 

Which gives him a longer list of potential universities should his brain not be full by then. More doors opened. It's all good.

Re: French Immersion
 

My daughter's doing French immersion (in the UK though), not sure how much use it will be but at the very least it gets one GCSE out of the way early.

She could have done Mandarin immersion which may well have been much more beneficial in the future, but that hasn't come easily to her so I think it would have been a step too far.

I can only see an additional language as an asset personally, no matter what that language is.

Re: French Immersion
 

I think it is a great idea to get your kids bi-lingual at such an early age (when it is easier for them to learn). My buddy deliberately sent his kids to a French speaking school (Ottawa area) then spoke both English and French to them at home.


As a result they are both English / French bi-lingual. This can be very valuable (and in some cases necessary) in Canada (e.g. beyond a certain grade in the civil service you need to be bi-lingual, you need to be bi-lingual to be an officer in the armed forces etc.)

Re: French Immersion
 

You've really set your sights high. :rofl:

Re: French Immersion
 

Not possibly the best thread for this...but...language has become a 'subject' I'm having to really make my kid listen to the fact that 'French' and 'English' are not merely 'subjects' but the very tools that will make communication better. The problem is that I'm not sure that that is true?

Re: French Immersion
 

Oink and I need to be popped into a different thread for Bilingual discussions I feel?

Re: French Immersion
 

Oink should probably be on a forum of his own! :rofl::rofl::rofl:


I took no offence to his comment on my post at all and actually found it very funny (with perhaps a grain of truth)!


IMHO, he has a very particular 'p*ss-taking' sense of humour (which I recognise), but like all things on a written forum, it is perhaps easily mis-understood.

Re: French Immersion
 

I don't really agree with the second paragraph. All public service job specs have language profiles. I'll admit that a senior position would probably require CCC (which isn't fully bilingual: E is close and P is totally).

There are plenty of not-very-bilingual officers knocking around, I can assure you. Even senior ones. Most of them are primarily Anglophone (no surprises there).

Re: French Immersion
 

I saw one projection that showed under certain assumptions French could take over Spanish in terms of worldwide speakers within 25 to 30 years. I think if one speaks English, French and Spanish that covers a lot of the world.

Re: French Immersion
 

I'm probably going to go against the grain here, but I'm personally not a fan of French Immersion. On the West Coast, French is not a language that is used. We have FI schools, sure, (in fact our closest school is FI). I suppose for some roles in the public sector French may be useful, even required. But for day to day, I don't think so. Learning is challenging enough. But to have to learn in a foreign language, when you may have no French speakers at home to help you with stuff is even harder. Another problem where we are (a local problem I admit) is that after Elementary School, the nearest FI Secondary School is over 30km away and with its circuitous route, the bus takes well over an hour to get there. As a consequence, most of the Elementary students from the FI school fall back into the mainstream local secondary where French isn't spoken. They just find themselves a bit behind in math and science where they have used up teaching time learning difficult concepts in a foreign language rather than the subject itself.

Re: French Immersion
 

Unless in China, definitely a step too far. As tonal language, a huge amount of exposure is needed.

Well done on French immersion in the UK. Have tried for year to teach and encourage junior in French, but he seems to have extraordinarily little interest. In fact, he's been picking up more German from a school pal than any French he has been taught. As a francophile, I despair...

Re: French Immersion
 

You don't have to speak French but, again, my child in Vancouver worked summer/evening jobs in French through university and secured a permanent job, at the prestigious location of Hastings and Main no less, partly on the strength of speaking French. It's an asset. In Canada I'd say it's a greater asset than any other second language.

There's certainly a case that some children, perhaps all children, would put something else in their heads if they weren't full of foreign nouns and so no second language is best. If there's to be a second language though, French is a better bet in Canada than any of the gimmicky ones.

Re: French Immersion
 

An interesting take. In previous discussions on these boards about FI (one in particular springs to mind, I think ExKiwi was the principal west coast rep in that one) it is noticeable that there are significant differences in the FI system - and certainly in the politics of FI schooling - between Ontario and BC. While it can be argued in either jurisdiction that choosing French Immersion is a bit of a shortcut to academic streaming, it's hard to separate that from "social streaming" (there tend to be fewer ESL students, fewer students on IEP, fewer low-income students, etc., in FI schools). This really became a political hot potato in BC due to the heavily oversubscribed FI schools and the competition for places. That hasn't (with a few very localised exceptions) been the case in ON.

I know I've said so previously, but I think the slightly tongue-in-cheek answer on the 'academic selection' question I was given by one of my kids' kindergarten teachers sums it up well: "while French Immersion primary education is not academically selective, it is an inescapable fact that, where both are available, the more academically able students tend to gravitate towards the FI program while the more challenged tend to opt for English-track schooling."

Re: French Immersion
 

I was having a chat with my Iranian neighbour Hossein yesterday. I always talk to him in English (only found out yesterday that he can speak some French).

We were discussing tenses and the problems attached to them. There are seven in English (I think), 14 in French (I think).

In Farsi there are 32!

I think I'll give Farsi a miss.

Re: French Immersion
 

There have been numerous studies on the academic benefits of learning a foreign language. As far as learning being "challenging enough" while I wonder whether learning is as challenging as it used to be, I cant see why learning a foreign language, and learning well should be considered too much for a young student.

European students normally learn besides English another language, and I don't see them being behind in math and science compared to North American students, in fact the contrary in experiences I have had some exposure to.

Re: French Immersion
 

I think you're missing out the "immersion" aspect of Rivington's post.

Re: French Immersion
 

French Immersion doesn't mean learning a second language. I've never said learning a second language was in any way a bad thing. What I do question is whether transposing your entire education into what for some/many is a second language is automatically a good thing.

Re: French Immersion
 

I understand the distinction. I guess I look at it that being truly bi-lingual is an advantage in itself, and that immersion programs further that advantage.

Re: French Immersion
 

My grade 8 daughter and grade 5 son are in FI in the greater Hamilton area of Ontario. I have for the most part been happy with it. They don't know any different, they're doing pretty well and my average ability kids seem to be carried along by their peers, some of who are obviously very smart. I've certainly noticed their ability to spell in English definitely takes a hit around grade 5 but seems to catch up by the time they get to grade 8. (SK to grade 5 being very French focused and grade 6 - 8 being years when they suddenly study some subjects entirely in English).
There's certainly an element of social engineering in the FI group. They're definitely for the most part the children of more well to do parents, more educated parents and with parents who have had exposure to life beyond Canadian borders. We could have a long debate about the pros and cons of this but it is what it is.
Like all things education wise, definitely a matter of personal choice.

Re: French Immersion
 

Our son is in Grade 2 French immersion in Toronto. He started in JK so it has always been a part of his school experience. Our experience in Toronto has been OK. Our son in very fluent in his speech and reading, writing and math are coming along just fine. We do find that we, as parents, are more involved with his school as we need to prop up the English side of his learning at home.
One of the issues in Toronto is that to continue in French for the higher grades then generally the kids are bused to a different school. Some, as we will face, are very far. Kids in his school here that wish to continue in grade five are bused out and this adds an hour to their day each way and removes them from there community of friends. I think that it is a method employed by TDSB to cut the numbers. I am sure that it is a different in places such as Ottawa.

Sad that the TDSB has a lot of antagonistic ideas in general (who are these people). To add further dynamic, our school has split classes this year. Our son is in a 2/3 split which really sucks for the kids. You would think that in the city we would not have our schooling like 'Little House on the Prairie'. Their is no mathematical reason why the classes are split it is just a TDSB move and it adds a great deal of difficulty for the students and staff. We have found that the teachers are pretty dedicated to the bilingual learning and they certainly try to do what they can in the framework of the TDSB model. Some students found it challenging and dropped before the got to SK. In terms of numbers, I think that it was around 2 or 3 students out of 45. His class is pretty mixed and for some the French is a third language.

I would suggest that you give it a try. More education and skills cannot be a bad thing right!