Employer Attitudes
#1
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Joined: Jul 2017
Location: Burlington, ON
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Employer Attitudes
So my partner recently recieved a job offer, we are currently in the UK so this is a big win for us, however, we have also been put off A LOT from this employer due to their mannerisms and complete unwillingness to compromise in any manner. I'm hoping this is perhaps normal for Canadian employers (if so, that doesn't sound so great) so figured I'd ask on here. A couple of examples for context.
Start date; This coincides with something we must attend (there is no choice in the matter - literally). They refuse to accept this and have told us to 'skip' it, which faces heavy repercussions. We basically said a few weeks after the date, allows us time to land, get a place to live, settle somewhat, then begin work. This is apparently outrageous and they refuse to budge on the start date. I cannot fathom how this is at all reasonable in any view? Ultimately the one provided is impossible to commit to.
Pay: When we researched the role, it was somewhat mixed on what the average salary was. The offer they made, appeared to be below the average so more was asked. This got their backs up a lot! We've never had this with a UK employer so were quite taken back by it.
Holiday: They offered a little over the minimum so we asked for more. We currently have roughly 5 weeks, so to move to half the amount, we figured ask for more, they also said we can ask for more during the interview process. This again, has outraged them. (I may exaggerate the term, but it helps put the point across of their reaction).
Presently we have a company car too, and this isn't something offered, so again feels like another step backwards. Their overall attitude post interview process to any kind of negotiation or compromise has been poor so far, and has certainly made us wonder what their work ethic is like once employed. Glassdoor reviews seem mostly positive though.
I've been reading things on Reddit and this seems somewhat like a common thing over there, whereas others say this isn't normal at all and to avoid any employer who acts like the above.
How do people here find things? Any similar experiences? If so, did you take the position and did the attitude continue?
Start date; This coincides with something we must attend (there is no choice in the matter - literally). They refuse to accept this and have told us to 'skip' it, which faces heavy repercussions. We basically said a few weeks after the date, allows us time to land, get a place to live, settle somewhat, then begin work. This is apparently outrageous and they refuse to budge on the start date. I cannot fathom how this is at all reasonable in any view? Ultimately the one provided is impossible to commit to.
Pay: When we researched the role, it was somewhat mixed on what the average salary was. The offer they made, appeared to be below the average so more was asked. This got their backs up a lot! We've never had this with a UK employer so were quite taken back by it.
Holiday: They offered a little over the minimum so we asked for more. We currently have roughly 5 weeks, so to move to half the amount, we figured ask for more, they also said we can ask for more during the interview process. This again, has outraged them. (I may exaggerate the term, but it helps put the point across of their reaction).
Presently we have a company car too, and this isn't something offered, so again feels like another step backwards. Their overall attitude post interview process to any kind of negotiation or compromise has been poor so far, and has certainly made us wonder what their work ethic is like once employed. Glassdoor reviews seem mostly positive though.
I've been reading things on Reddit and this seems somewhat like a common thing over there, whereas others say this isn't normal at all and to avoid any employer who acts like the above.
How do people here find things? Any similar experiences? If so, did you take the position and did the attitude continue?
Last edited by jimmynoshoes; May 29th 2019 at 12:51 pm.
#2
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Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Near Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 1,318
Re: Employer Attitudes
There are some employers out there who will be bloody minded- BUT you also have to compromise- you want to come to Canada bad enough then you will abide by their requirements. Once you are here and have CDN work experience under your belt then you can look elsewhere. Don't keep comparing it to the UK- its not the same country- holidays here are a maximum of 10 days for some folks.
If you really cannot budge then I would "skip it" and leave it longer until you find your dream job. Seriously I have been in Canada for 17 years and I am only just at the level I was when i left UK- its a compromise.
I know this is probably not what you want to hear. GLTA
If you really cannot budge then I would "skip it" and leave it longer until you find your dream job. Seriously I have been in Canada for 17 years and I am only just at the level I was when i left UK- its a compromise.
I know this is probably not what you want to hear. GLTA
#3
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Joined: Jul 2018
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 165
Re: Employer Attitudes
To me these are big red flags.
I think you need to ask yourselves:
1. How 'desperate" or how necessary is finding a job immediately?
2. Is this a role that you like?
In regards to salary - I'd reach out to people on LinkedIn in similar positions and maybe ask for a chat?
Your holiday as far as I know depends on seniority in a company ... more junior or entry level roles vacation is paltry. In my experience and my that of friends that work (In Ontario) Managers and above usually get at least 4 weeks.
TBH - this company is giving me red flags all over the place. If I were you I'd say look these are my circumstances, you knew I was transitioning from overseas (i am assuming they were aware during the interview process) and their are certain things at this point that aren't flexible.
I think you need to ask yourselves:
1. How 'desperate" or how necessary is finding a job immediately?
2. Is this a role that you like?
In regards to salary - I'd reach out to people on LinkedIn in similar positions and maybe ask for a chat?
Your holiday as far as I know depends on seniority in a company ... more junior or entry level roles vacation is paltry. In my experience and my that of friends that work (In Ontario) Managers and above usually get at least 4 weeks.
TBH - this company is giving me red flags all over the place. If I were you I'd say look these are my circumstances, you knew I was transitioning from overseas (i am assuming they were aware during the interview process) and their are certain things at this point that aren't flexible.
#4
Re: Employer Attitudes
Company cars are a peculiarly British thing. It started in the 1970's to exploit a tax loophole around a provision that was designed to tax "directors and higher paid employees", but rampant inflation soon made almost everyone a "higher paid employee" - the threshold was set at, and remains to this day £8,500, per year!
While I am not certain about Canada I suspect that it is like the US, that if you need to travel frequently to meet clients or visit job sites then you will be provided a car, if you only travel occasionally, your employer will rent a car for those trips, but otherwise it would be very rare that an employer would buy a car as a perk for an employee.
While I am not certain about Canada I suspect that it is like the US, that if you need to travel frequently to meet clients or visit job sites then you will be provided a car, if you only travel occasionally, your employer will rent a car for those trips, but otherwise it would be very rare that an employer would buy a car as a perk for an employee.
#5
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Joined: Jul 2017
Location: Burlington, ON
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Re: Employer Attitudes
There are some employers out there who will be bloody minded- BUT you also have to compromise- you want to come to Canada bad enough then you will abide by their requirements. Once you are here and have CDN work experience under your belt then you can look elsewhere. Don't keep comparing it to the UK- its not the same country- holidays here are a maximum of 10 days for some folks.
If you really cannot budge then I would "skip it" and leave it longer until you find your dream job. Seriously I have been in Canada for 17 years and I am only just at the level I was when i left UK- its a compromise.
I know this is probably not what you want to hear. GLTA
If you really cannot budge then I would "skip it" and leave it longer until you find your dream job. Seriously I have been in Canada for 17 years and I am only just at the level I was when i left UK- its a compromise.
I know this is probably not what you want to hear. GLTA
The job level is actually the same as the UK, which is a reason we don't want to turn this down.
To me these are big red flags.
I think you need to ask yourselves:
1. How 'desperate" or how necessary is finding a job immediately?
2. Is this a role that you like?
In regards to salary - I'd reach out to people on LinkedIn in similar positions and maybe ask for a chat?
Your holiday as far as I know depends on seniority in a company ... more junior or entry level roles vacation is paltry. In my experience and my that of friends that work (In Ontario) Managers and above usually get at least 4 weeks.
TBH - this company is giving me red flags all over the place. If I were you I'd say look these are my circumstances, you knew I was transitioning from overseas (i am assuming they were aware during the interview process) and their are certain things at this point that aren't flexible.
I think you need to ask yourselves:
1. How 'desperate" or how necessary is finding a job immediately?
2. Is this a role that you like?
In regards to salary - I'd reach out to people on LinkedIn in similar positions and maybe ask for a chat?
Your holiday as far as I know depends on seniority in a company ... more junior or entry level roles vacation is paltry. In my experience and my that of friends that work (In Ontario) Managers and above usually get at least 4 weeks.
TBH - this company is giving me red flags all over the place. If I were you I'd say look these are my circumstances, you knew I was transitioning from overseas (i am assuming they were aware during the interview process) and their are certain things at this point that aren't flexible.
2) On paper, yes. It should be very similar to what she does now.
I think the salary now offered is probably more in line with what it should be, taking into account lack of CDN experience at this stage. It isn't entry/low end position, but not quite full on manager either. Thinking about it however, with the 5 weeks holiday we have now, we actually struggle to use it all in a meaningful way. I agree with your last statement. They were fully aware from the start she is UK based and should be taking this into account.
#6
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Re: Employer Attitudes
Would you accept this offer if it was made by a UK company? That should tell you what your gut is saying, EXCEPT, this is different as it allows you to kick off your move to Canada. Most people have it rocky the first year or two (at least) and the big one seems to be getting a decent job. If the job is at a good level, take it to get moved and the all important Canadian experience and beginnings of a network, then move on when you are able.
#7
Re: Employer Attitudes
If I offered someone a job, someone who was abroad and wanted to come here, and said "you have to start on June 2nd because that fits with everything else" I would expect the person to turn up on June 2nd. I would not be able to imagine what event would be more important to the applicant than my job offer. I suppose if you tell them you are in court and will be along as soon as acquitted they be able to see the necessity of being late but that may have awkward implications.
#8
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Location: Burlington, ON
Posts: 158
Re: Employer Attitudes
If I offered someone a job, someone who was abroad and wanted to come here, and said "you have to start on June 2nd because that fits with everything else" I would expect the person to turn up on June 2nd. I would not be able to imagine what event would be more important to the applicant than my job offer. I suppose if you tell them you are in court and will be along as soon as acquitted they be able to see the necessity of being late but that may have awkward implications.
Last edited by jimmynoshoes; May 29th 2019 at 2:35 pm.
#9
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Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Was Calgary back in Edmonton again !!
Posts: 2,667
Re: Employer Attitudes
Company cars are a peculiarly British thing. It started in the 1970's to exploit a tax loophole around a provision that was designed to tax "directors and higher paid employees", but rampant inflation soon made almost everyone a "higher paid employee" - the threshold was set at, and remains to this day £8,500, per year!
While I am not certain about Canada I suspect that it is like the US, that if you need to travel frequently to meet clients or visit job sites then you will be provided a car, if you only travel occasionally, your employer will rent a car for those trips, but otherwise it would be very rare that an employer would buy a car as a perk for an employee.
While I am not certain about Canada I suspect that it is like the US, that if you need to travel frequently to meet clients or visit job sites then you will be provided a car, if you only travel occasionally, your employer will rent a car for those trips, but otherwise it would be very rare that an employer would buy a car as a perk for an employee.
#10
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Posts: 2,032
Re: Employer Attitudes
The no company car and lower vacation allowance are both part of working in Canada. I can understand why an employer may start a new hire from another country on a low salary - more important I think is whether there is potential for increases based on performance. As far as the start date goes - you mention that you had suggested a date some weeks after their preferred date. I can see that this might upset them, but can also understand your reason for why the original one won't work. How close to their date can you make? Maybe your wife comes on her own and starts the job immediately after the commitment is over and you follow on later. Its not ideal but at least shows you are willing to put yourselves out to get the job. From the employer's point of view at the moment it could well look like you want things all your own way.
#11
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Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 19,879
Re: Employer Attitudes
Welcome to Canada - yes, this is how many companies roll..
Why should they adapt or meet your requests? You are an unknown quantity not even in Canada - there are probably 10 other candidates who are living in Canada and happy to accept their terms and conditions. Without meaning to sound harsh - this isn't the UK... different hiring culture, different work culture.
What you are expecting/requesting might be acceptable to some companies if you are in a niche, in demand, profession, otherwise you would be expected to pretty much 'suck it up' if it's a job that you fancy - there may not be another offer in the near future. Once you have a few years of Canadian experience behind you then you can make requests/demands and expect them to be met.
I'd suggest a good read of the wiki about the challenges of moving to Canada and workplace adaptation https://britishexpats.com/wiki/Categ...ada_Challenges and https://britishexpats.com/wiki/Workp...ptation-Canada
Good luck with whatever you decide to do..
Why should they adapt or meet your requests? You are an unknown quantity not even in Canada - there are probably 10 other candidates who are living in Canada and happy to accept their terms and conditions. Without meaning to sound harsh - this isn't the UK... different hiring culture, different work culture.
What you are expecting/requesting might be acceptable to some companies if you are in a niche, in demand, profession, otherwise you would be expected to pretty much 'suck it up' if it's a job that you fancy - there may not be another offer in the near future. Once you have a few years of Canadian experience behind you then you can make requests/demands and expect them to be met.
I'd suggest a good read of the wiki about the challenges of moving to Canada and workplace adaptation https://britishexpats.com/wiki/Categ...ada_Challenges and https://britishexpats.com/wiki/Workp...ptation-Canada
Good luck with whatever you decide to do..
Last edited by Siouxie; May 29th 2019 at 6:06 pm.
#12
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Re: Employer Attitudes
What your describing isn't unusual in Canada (or the US) depending on industry and region they may have no reason to negotiate, they may have others willing and able to meet the companies requirements, start dates in my experience are often not always flexible, pay tends to be the most flexible but also depends if its a labor market or employer market.
There is a reason wages for example to be lower in Vancouver vs say Toronto, for many industries its an employers market they get more applicants then they need, they can set the bar low and find someone to work for the wage/benefits offered.
Is this position union? Union positions tend to have no negotiating room as the company will have to follow the union contract for pay and benefits.
There is a reason wages for example to be lower in Vancouver vs say Toronto, for many industries its an employers market they get more applicants then they need, they can set the bar low and find someone to work for the wage/benefits offered.
Is this position union? Union positions tend to have no negotiating room as the company will have to follow the union contract for pay and benefits.
#13
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Re: Employer Attitudes
Pretty much got the reasoning there I'll just say no win no fee, to avoid the whole concept of us being naughty people. Not attending though would put us in contempt however, so it isn't something we can get out of, which was explained, but they still suggested we skip it >_>
#14
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Posts: 3,874
Re: Employer Attitudes
Having a company car is not really an advantage in Canada ......... I believe it counts as a Taxable Benefit, so you have to claim it on your income tax return, which means you have to pay tax on it.
Only high-up executives might get the car.
2 weeks (10 days) vacation is standard in the workplace but seems to be a little negotiable. 5 weeks at start off would be hard for the company to accept. However, you do get more Statutory or Provincial holidays than in the UK ..... which usually means at least 10 long weekends a month, in addition to the 2 weeks.
Having lived in Canada for over 50 years, although OH and myself never worked in the business world, what I have seen and learnt from other people, is that you are trying to negotiate something that is NOT negotiable to the Canadian business person. I know people who own businesses or are in high management who would not consider some of your demands.
They are taking a bit of a leap of faith in offering your partner the position, hoping that she will be able to adjust to the style of work here, that her learning curve will not be too high or too long, and obviously want it filled as soon as possible.
To be blunt ............. you are moving to a different country, different mores, different expectations. Are you up to it????
Only high-up executives might get the car.
2 weeks (10 days) vacation is standard in the workplace but seems to be a little negotiable. 5 weeks at start off would be hard for the company to accept. However, you do get more Statutory or Provincial holidays than in the UK ..... which usually means at least 10 long weekends a month, in addition to the 2 weeks.
Having lived in Canada for over 50 years, although OH and myself never worked in the business world, what I have seen and learnt from other people, is that you are trying to negotiate something that is NOT negotiable to the Canadian business person. I know people who own businesses or are in high management who would not consider some of your demands.
They are taking a bit of a leap of faith in offering your partner the position, hoping that she will be able to adjust to the style of work here, that her learning curve will not be too high or too long, and obviously want it filled as soon as possible.
To be blunt ............. you are moving to a different country, different mores, different expectations. Are you up to it????
#15
Re: Employer Attitudes
For the first time in my life I am considering relocating to Canada!