brizzle

Hi all,

With the rash of brazen shootings this week, it made me think about crime in the Vancouver area. Some elementary research shows the murder rate to be 2.41 per 100,000 here against 1.23 in England & Wales and 2.12 in Scotland.

I have had my family's house broken into twice in Vancouver (over a period of 6 years - been PR for the last two), against having my car broken into once in London.

There's definitely more murders in Vancouver (and Canada in general, I think), than in the UK, but my overall perception is that there is probably more general crime per head in the UK.

The space here gives the impression of a safer place, but is it ? Everyone lives in much closer proximity in the UK, so I think that you are just made more aware of what is happening around you.

Chav's on the street corner in the UK don't make you feel safe, but Canada has their counterparts (gangster wannabe's) too. I've lost count of the number of ex grow-op houses I've seen (with the big notices on the front) and all the pan-handlers/druggie's don't help either with feeling safe.

Loads of people slag off the UK and say it's going to the dogs etc, but is crime levels really any different to here ??

marclouis

You are comparing a city with a country here?

The4BellsLondon

Well having been here since 10th Dec - -the rash of shootings in last week ish is the most I have really heard about . .compared to when we lived in Saaaarf London and most mornings there would be at least 1 shooting and 1 stabbinbg reported. . .

We are on Commercial Drive too and feel safe most of the time . . .lots of "hobos" but they are pleasant!

startwin

This is a topic that's been done to death, however the recent spate of gang shootings in the lower mainland is really frightening. The gangs have been allowed to get out of control thanks to a ridiculous judiciary system, lenient sentencing, and total inability of the IHIT squad to arrest anyone. However, I still feel a lot safer here! At least they are targetting each other, hopefully they'll kill each other off pretty quick. In the UK there are way too many cases of stabbings and shootings of innocent people for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

scrubbedexpat091

The Vancouver murders tend to be targeted hits and not random, but the gangs are becoming more bold and some bystanders have been hit in the past and I am afraid it may get worse as the gang wars get works.

BC is becoming a safe haven for these gangs mostly in drug trade due to lighter sentencing laws, and easy access to ports and US border, and tougher sentencing in general in the US.

Major drug dealers/traffickers can face life in many US states but only a few years in Canada if caught.

Refugee from Happyland

The shootings have begun to resemble the wild west rather than the usual targeted hits.
The posters choice of wording is ironic since a lot of focus has been on the bacon gang,
I think mindless street violence is worse in Uk still. However Vancouverites can't complain as the violence is drug related, supplying products which a huge % of regular Joe's consume in BC

ExKiwilass

Eh, whatever. Every big city I have lived in has had a crime problem.

That said, the gang killings are getting ridic. Speaking of the Bacons, a friend has one in her port moody complex - she's determined to get him out, collecting signatures, calling the mayor, etc. heh.

PMM

Hi


Homicide rate 5.38 per 100/k in Glasgow for 2008.

Iain Mc

Careful: that's my perception too, but dbd33 will be along shortly to call you rude names for trying to make the distinction between the two.

There have certainly been a lot of inter-gang shootings in the last couple of weeks; all of the victims, as usual, seemingly 'known to police'. 4Bells, whilst it's certainly true there has been an increasing amount of inter-gang violence here over the past couple of years, this recent open season of tit-for-tat actions into which you have arrived is exceptional and not the rule.

There is much noise from local politicians at the moment, who are being stung by public and media protest about their inability to toughen up the inadequate criminal justice system.

The embarrassing prospect of gangsters whacking each other in front of the world's media during the 2010 games, rather than the worry that the thankfully high standard of marksmanship thus-far in 2009 may slip and claim innocent victims, means there is likely a big crack-down in the offing. There's some announcement tomorrow about a provincial action plan, I believe.

I see there was a huge (700 coppers) sweep through Montreal this morning to round up members of various organized crime syndicates - I suspect something similar isn't too far away from happening here.

scrubbedexpat091

There is much noise from local politicians at the moment, who are being stung by public and media protest about their inability to toughen up the inadequate criminal justice system.

Unfortunately the federal government doesn't seem interested in changing the laws, according to the news last night its the federal government that would need to change laws for tougher sentencing etc.

Iain Mc

It's not so much the laws that are the problem; it's liberal sentencing, precedent, lack of prison places, etc., things that can be fixed if there is a will and money. The laws already allow for tough sentencing for gun crime - the trouble is getting them applied, these are normally the first things plea bargained away.

The Provincial Government is rightly getting stick for passing the buck to Ottawa - as noted previously, Quebec seem able to take matters into their own hands to fix things when the situation necessitates.

brizzle

Yes, well the stats I found were Van v UK, so I get your point, but everything, I've seen points towards a higher murder rate in Canada v UK.

In general, I have felt pretty safe here, but there seem to be a lot of random shootouts in random places. In the UK, you know which areas of a city are going to have more crimes, shooting, stabbings. In Bristol, if you're in St Paul's, Hartcliffe, Knowle etc you know that something will happen at some point, but it seems totally random here and that is what is scary and in broad daylight too.

These gangs have a very lucrative market in exchanging bc bud for other drugs and then selling them for hard cash. It's pretty much like growing money. The problem has been allowed to fester for too long. The police need to get in their faces more.

I can't believe that we don't have a metro Van police force. I think there are 22 separate police forces ? That is ridiculous and must waste so much money on admin, HQ's etc. This area would have one police force in the UK.

scrubbedexpat091

I can't believe that we don't have a metro Van police force. I think there are 22 separate police forces ? That is ridiculous and must waste so much money on admin, HQ's etc. This area would have one police force in the UK.

Pretty much the norm in North America, some city's like to have their own force and control over the force, other city's just contract to the RCMP for police services. I don't think its necessarily better to have one large force for an entire area.



Same in California, we had the sheriff who legally has jurisdiction over the entire county which has 18 individual city's, and many unincorporated areas, but many of those 18 city's choose to have their own force, others use the sheriff.

The San Diego metro area is just around 3 million in population.

The laws already allow for tough sentencing for gun crime - the trouble is getting them applied, these are normally the first things plea bargained away.

If judges and prosecutors cannot be trusted to sentence wisely, then maybe its time to bring in minimum sentencing and force it on them. Not sure if the provincial government can do this or not, seems based on news reports they cannot.

JamesM

I must admit I have always felt alot safer in Toronto than in Vancouver. Less dead beats walking the streets etc......

I think we had a massive debate on crime and crime stats recently in the "Why are People so defensive about Canada" thread. I bet that was not the first one either.

dbd33

I decided last night not to bother but since you ask: The murder rate is higher in Canada. Especially the rate of shooting is higher in Canada. The Canadian economy and, especially that of BC, depends on the production of marginally illegal drugs. Posters in Canada, especially in BC, like to think there's a lack of crime and typically defend their view with two arguments:

- all governments except the Canadian one fudge the crime statistics

- they personally are not dead

One tires of pointing out the weaknesses in these positions.

I see two correlations here:

- countries where drug production is a major industry tend to instability; Columbia, Mexico, Canada

- a high level of drug consumption makes people blissfully oblivious, BC.