Crime rates

Old Sep 9th 2008, 3:54 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by Jules Europe View Post
I know that is where the majority of Canadians live but they still have the option of being near open space if they really want to. In the UK space is limited go to far and you will fall into the sea.
In England there's a right to roam which allows access to the countryside, there's no equivalent in Canada so I don't know that the majority of people living in Canada actually have greater access to open space than the majority of Britons. I walk the dog in the country on weekends but I'd do that if I lived in Kilburn.

I concede that someone who doesn't have to work could have a lot more open space in Canada; Northern Ontario, for example, is empty.
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 3:56 pm
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by babsi View Post
I have noticed this year that shootings/murders have been more frequent in areas that I go to which scares me in Toronto.
This is why I'm happier living in Saskatoon than Toronto, even though the crime rate here is supposedly worse...
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 3:58 pm
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by MarkG View Post

But the problem seems to be far more localised to specific areas of the city here, whereas in most parts of the UK where I lived you could run into some violent drunk late at night pretty much anywhere. Only the most expensive areas were largely violence-free, and then you had to deal with people coming from outside the area to burgle your house because they thought you were rich.
The pricier areas will have the drunks driving home... I don't worry about crime here (didn't in the UK either) but I am appalled at how socially acceptable it is to drive drunk. Canadian friends won't usually go out to the pub and then drive home, but to them it's acceptable to go for a meal, couple of bottles of wine and then drive home. I've heard "it's okay, the food will soak up the alcohol" from health professionals who really should know better.
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 4:05 pm
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
In England there's a right to roam which allows access to the countryside, there's no equivalent in Canada so I don't know that the majority of people living in Canada actually have greater access to open space than the majority of Britons. I walk the dog in the country on weekends but I'd do that if I lived in Kilburn.

I concede that someone who doesn't have to work could have a lot more open space in Canada; Northern Ontario, for example, is empty.
Difference being that if Canada`s population expands as expected with future immigration levels then there is the space to absorb these people. Infrastructure may need to be improved in more rural areas to absorb these people but the space is there. Whereas in the UK well, there isn`t too much space left to be absorbed. It is a simple equation of space divided by people and in the UK it just doesn`t go.
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 4:15 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by Jules Europe View Post
Difference being that if Canada`s population expands as expected with future immigration levels then there is the space to absorb these people. Infrastructure may need to be improved in more rural areas to absorb these people but the space is there. Whereas in the UK well, there isn`t too much space left to be absorbed. It is a simple equation of space divided by people and in the UK it just doesn`t go.
Immigrants to Canada by and large live in Toronto. Are you thinking that Toronto will spread out until it reaches Lake Simcoe, Lake Erie and the Quebec border? Otherwise, is there a scheme to displace immigrants to, say, the Yukon?

Again the problem's not so different from the UK, where south-east is teeming with people, the highlands of Scotland are less so, but few immigrants take up crofting. The popular areas end up with high population density and high crime rates while the empty bits stay empty.
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 4:51 pm
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
Immigrants to Canada by and large live in Toronto. Are you thinking that Toronto will spread out until it reaches Lake Simcoe, Lake Erie and the Quebec border? Otherwise, is there a scheme to displace immigrants to, say, the Yukon?

Again the problem's not so different from the UK, where south-east is teeming with people, the highlands of Scotland are less so, but few immigrants take up crofting. The popular areas end up with high population density and high crime rates while the empty bits stay empty.
Again there is no solution to the UK problem as the population is at breaking point. Not only is the south east teeming with people but so are the Midlands and greater Manchester areas as well etc and as the population increases much of these areas in terms of population density will just merge into one another, leaving less space little by little. Only last night on the news the government is worried that the population of the UK could surpass 70 million in the forseeable future. Places like the highlands etc will always just remain empty as there is nothing there for large populations. Canada is very different though, towns can still grow into cities, new towns can be born etc.. Forget Yukon look at the space Canada has to absorb people into its central and western areas all still near the US border. The example you give of Toronto growing is a bad example, for the simple reason it doesn`t need to grow because there are plenty of other places for people to effectively move to in Canada. The boom in Alberta and BC prime examples of where people are needed, people only go to the likes of Toronto because it is the biggest city and therefore acts like a magnet. If people move to the GTA or GVA and complain about population density well there are plenty of other parts of Canada that they can move to and find jobs as well.

The example you gave of the population density being comparable between the Ontario/Quebec region to Europe is a very poor comparison for the simple reason the land mass of the southern ontario/Quebec corridor is probably the same size as much of western Europe and even central Europe. Population of this area in canada is say 20.000.000 plus. The equivalent area in Europe well we are talking probably well 250.000.000 people ??????????? a huge difference and all occupying the same type of area.
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 5:05 pm
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
As mentioned above the advantage for immigrants from the UK is that they may be able to buy into a better area than they could at home (assuming high property values in the UK and a good exchange rate). The result is less perceived crime but the same could be done in the UK if only the emigrant had more money.
True - there are lovely rural areas in the UK (Cornwall, Lake District etc) but unless you're rich you can't afford to live in the lovely, safe little villages (that depict 'quintessential England' a la 'Midsomer Murders' and other such tv shows) so you're stuck in some dodgy suburb full of chavs and hoodies.

And I agree it can only get worse.
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 5:09 pm
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by seanyg View Post
that depict 'quintessential England' a la 'Midsomer Murders' and other such tv shows
Oops just realised that was a bad example - Midsomer Murders is about homicidal maniacs running loose in quiet little villages! I meant the analogy purely on an aesthetic basis.

Can't think of another example of a tv show about idealistic, quaint little English villages, sorry.
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 5:11 pm
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by seanyg View Post
True - there are lovely rural areas in the UK (Cornwall, Lake District etc) but unless you're rich you can't afford to live in the lovely, safe little villages (that depict 'quintessential England' a la 'Midsomer Murders' and other such tv shows) so you're stuck in some dodgy suburb full of chavs and hoodies.

And I agree it can only get worse.
It's the same in Canada though, the "good" areas are out of reach to most Canadians. Canadians of similar education/profession couldn't afford the houses many expats live in, it's only the cashing-in on UK property that enables that.

I don't agree with the poster above that the UK is too crowded, what does that mean? There's room for plenty more. Who's the American who did the BA adverts... he said if you take Manhatten as the most densely populated area, and put the entire world population in equivalent density, they'd only fill the former Yugoslavia. So how come the UK feels crowded for you?
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 5:16 pm
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by Biiiiink View Post
It's the same in Canada though, the "good" areas are out of reach to most Canadians. Canadians of similar education/profession couldn't afford the houses many expats live in, it's only the cashing-in on UK property that enables that.
That's precisely why house prices and living mortgage-free form one of the biggest arguments for Brits wanting to emigrate. Assuming you can sell your UK house for the price you need, obviously (which ain't easy in the current climate)...
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 5:19 pm
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by Jules Europe View Post
Canada is very different though, towns can still grow into cities, new towns can be born etc.. Forget Yukon look at the space Canada has to absorb people into its central and western areas all still near the US border.
You can't just make such broad assumptions. The growth of towns and cities in the Thompson/Okanagan area of central BC, for example, will be limited by accessibility of water. You can't keep building just because there appears to be space. City planning in Kamloops is very much geared towards in-fill, not urban sprawl, so population density will only get greater here. There's no magic solution to finding natural resources that will support a sprawling low-density population.
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 5:45 pm
  #42  
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by Jules Europe View Post
Places like the highlands etc will always just remain empty as there is nothing there for large populations. Canada is very different though, towns can still grow into cities, new towns can be born etc.
But that's not what happens. If you look at northern Ontario the towns are abandoned, depopulated, the people have moved to the city; not the city to them. The Scottish highlands are closer to areas of population density and large markets than most of Canada so I don't see why it's more likely for a new town to spring up in, say, the middle of Manitoba, than in Scotland.

Originally Posted by Jules Europe View Post
Forget Yukon look at the space Canada has to absorb people into its central and western areas all still near the US border. .
It's not the border that's magic, it's the markets beyond it, there's no point in locating a town or industry above North Dakota or Wyoming. It's the rust belt Canadians crowd against.

Originally Posted by Jules Europe View Post
The example you give of Toronto growing is a bad example, for the simple reason it doesn`t need to grow because there are plenty of other places for people to effectively move to in Canada.
It's not my whimsical example but the prime destination for immigrants; it's where most of them want to go. How are you going to get them to go elsewhere? (Don't think it hasn't been tried, doctors can get all manner of bonuses and tax allowances to move even to the exurbs).

Originally Posted by Jules Europe View Post
The boom in Alberta and BC prime examples of where people are needed, people only go to the likes of Toronto because it is the biggest city and therefore acts like a magnet. If people move to the GTA or GVA and complain about population density well there are plenty of other parts of Canada that they can move to and find jobs as well.
I don't think anyone's complaining about population density. Many people, myself included, like cities and accept that, in cities, you get people squished together commiting crimes. I don't think there's anything unique about crime in the UK, sink estates here are the same as sink estates there. The bulk of immigrants are not going to live in the country and are going to be exposed to high levels of crime. Rich people can avoid crime and, if the force of history makes British immigrants to Canada relatively rich, they'll experience less crime: what changes is one's social station not the murderous rages of great unwashed.
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 6:03 pm
  #43  
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
The theatre district is someone else's turf, hence the many shootings there.
How bloody many ?
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 6:08 pm
  #44  
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by dazzlerdaz View Post
How bloody many ?
My daughter, who works in the GSW unit of the hospital local to there sees about one new one a week, they don't usually make the news unless there are multiple victims. She doesn't see the dead ones of course.

Note that people don't get shot in theatres but in nightclubs or on the street late at night, I should think that you could work in a theatre for years and, if you didn't go out afterwards, never see violent crime.
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Old Sep 9th 2008, 6:14 pm
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Default Re: Crime rates

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
My daughter, who works in the GSW unit of the hospital local to there sees about one new one a week, they don't usually make the news unless there are multiple victims. She doesn't see the dead ones of course.

Note that people don't get shot in theatres but in nightclubs or on the street late at night, I should think that you could work in a theatre for years and, if you didn't go out afterwards, never see violent crime.
Very interesting.....i doubt my Wife will let me go out after work anyway !
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