A conversation and debate re Canada FP health services v UK NHS
Nov 7th 2017, 1:51 am
#31
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: Calling on Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
If you post opinions on the internet, and profit before patients, is an opinion, then it seems to me a bit precious to say that no one should criticize those opinions because it's your thread. Enjoy your riches but accept that there are people who don't think your approach admirable and that some of them may dare to say so.
Nov 7th 2017, 3:09 am
#32
Banned
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 19,879
Re: Calling on Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Perhaps rather than bickering between yourselves and making snide remarks you could agree to disagree or even - shock horror! - put each other on ignore and leave it at that.
Last edited by Siouxie; Nov 7th 2017 at 3:11 am.
Nov 7th 2017, 6:27 am
#33
SUPER MODERATOR
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: In a darkened room somewhere.............
Posts: 34,027
Re: Calling on Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
+1
Nov 7th 2017, 12:03 pm
#34
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: Calling on Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
<wanders off, muttering>
Nov 7th 2017, 12:43 pm
#35
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 50,763
Re: Calling on Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
I think the word 'profit' has been unfairly seized upon.
I'm probably one of those people who some accuse of believing 'profit' to be a dirty word.
But when I had my duplex, even I described the after expenses income as profit. But it was income which was, after all, the intention.
So the profit is the income. Or paycheck.
Same thing isn't it?
I'm probably one of those people who some accuse of believing 'profit' to be a dirty word.
But when I had my duplex, even I described the after expenses income as profit. But it was income which was, after all, the intention.
Us, we run a business, amazingly, for profit...go figure!! If we run at a loss then we dont get the paycheck
Interesting that you run a business for profit. Surely the idea is to provide care to your patients while earning what you think you deserve after all those years of training?
Nov 7th 2017, 8:35 pm
#36
Born again atheist
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Re: Calling on Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Nope. Profit is something you make on a capital investment. Income is something you earn by doing a job. The level of the income is determined by the nature of the job and how good you are at it.
Nov 7th 2017, 9:36 pm
#37
I need a walk
Joined: Mar 2014
Location: Okanagan
Posts: 4,899
Re: Calling on Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
I think the word 'profit' has been unfairly seized upon.
I'm probably one of those people who some accuse of believing 'profit' to be a dirty word. https://www.bolshevik.info/templates...ii/favicon.ico
But when I had my duplex, even I described the after expenses income as profit. But it was income which was, after all, the intention.
So the profit is the income. Or paycheck.
Same thing isn't it?
I'm probably one of those people who some accuse of believing 'profit' to be a dirty word. https://www.bolshevik.info/templates...ii/favicon.ico
But when I had my duplex, even I described the after expenses income as profit. But it was income which was, after all, the intention.
So the profit is the income. Or paycheck.
Same thing isn't it?
Some people erroneously I think confuse the verb with the noun, I was clearly using the latter in my reply.
This gives a fairly good explanation of the definition as it is business orientated which might hopefully be enlightening for some
Definition: Profit, also called net income, is the amount of earnings that exceed expenses for the period. In other words, it’s the amount of income left over after all the necessary and matched expenses are subtracted for the period
Last edited by Stinkypup; Nov 7th 2017 at 10:09 pm.
Nov 8th 2017, 5:43 am
#38
I need a walk
Joined: Mar 2014
Location: Okanagan
Posts: 4,899
Re: Calling on Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
This thread has been running now for just shy of five years. It has had way more than 700 posts an absolute majority of these posts have been either inquiring or indeed responding to inquiries to help family physicians/physicians considering moving to Canada. It serves really no other purpose, it is for all intents and purposes a post that one would typically find in the immigration forum. Up until very recently, I believe that physicians found useful information to help guide them through the lengthy process of potentially emigrating to Canada. If indeed this thread was in the immigration forum, had such thread drifts occurred, then moderators would have rapidly redirected things back on track and suggested such discussions should occur elsewhere off that forum.
It is clear that moderators feel that this is some trivial spat that can be solved by telling people that they should ignore the other parties. Whilst this is a simple solution on their part, it is certainly not I feel appropriate in this instance. If I were to do so then I would have no idea as to any further comments that potentially could put off other physicians who are considering moving to Canada because of two posters having an inexplicable seemingly pathological mistrust of the doctors who they see as people who simply put money before care.
Novocastrian's initial comment centred in around the expression 'income generator' which I would admit is not a good expression but it has to be pointed out that Wanderingdoc is a new participant in the forum and is not a physician who is actively working in Canada. His post was then subsequently followed up by what can only be interpreted as a trolling one from DBD (site rule 4) as otherwise this would not have made sense in view of our profession being liable to tax just as any other profession.
I as well as Snoopdawg been spent considerable time explaining how we do not put money first, how as doctors working in Canada we are extremely ethical and caring to our patients. I explained that cherry picking patients cannot take place. My subsequent thoughts I feel were well explained in post 710 and then went back onto thread to discuss with a prospective family physician how potentially different it was working in Canada compared to the UK, something hopefully helpful to other physicians considering the move.
Novocastrian then suggests "that family physicians in Canada were more interested in maximising income streams and acting in the best interest of their patients" this comment is offensive to family physicians and particularly those reading this on this forum. SnoopDawg wrote I feel a well considered post which summed up the situation very well but the pair of them chose to ignore it.
Having explained in quite significant detail how we practice medicine and ethically, and diligently conduct business to the benefit of our patients in Canada, they yet again both chose to completely ignore what we had said and clearly declined to answer my question with regard to how they felt we should conduct our business any differently.
It is ironic that Novocastrian was affronted by what he calls personal abuse-considering his offensive posts.Surely he cannot be surprised if strong responses are thrown back at him?
It has rapidly become evident that Novocastrian has truly no concept about how physicians are paid in Canada nor indeed the definition of profits within this concept. I think the pair of them believe that the system should be run identically to that in the UK. As we tried to explain, it isn't, nor can it be but it can be followed in an ethical way which benefits patients as well as the doctors who look after these patients. I believe that most family physicians would hopefully follow this ethical route, I know that myself and Snoop work hard, do as good a job as we can for our patients and expect reasonable remuneration for this, no more no less.
I certainly do not see our job as above anyone else's nor have I ever suggested this. I strongly feel that this thread has been completely derailed by two people who have clearly a significant axe to grind with physicians for whatever reason and they continue and repeatedly assert that physicians are totally financially motivated, putting money before patients which is so far from the truth and so incredibly offensive that I have to say that inaction by moderators speaks volumes.
SnoopDawg particularly has contributed a lot to this thread and because of the actions of these two within a simple matter of about six posts from each of them out of 737 then this, I feel incredibly valuable resource has almost certainly been lost. Maybe that is what the initial aim was. I have no idea Maybe I should congratulate and say job well done, mission accomplished dbd and Novocastrian- should you feel proud? No. I certainly don't. Do you probably care? Almost certainly not. Have I just wasted 45 minutes of my life writing this? Probably, but I felt that it was right that I did so, it needed to be said.
It is clear that moderators feel that this is some trivial spat that can be solved by telling people that they should ignore the other parties. Whilst this is a simple solution on their part, it is certainly not I feel appropriate in this instance. If I were to do so then I would have no idea as to any further comments that potentially could put off other physicians who are considering moving to Canada because of two posters having an inexplicable seemingly pathological mistrust of the doctors who they see as people who simply put money before care.
Novocastrian's initial comment centred in around the expression 'income generator' which I would admit is not a good expression but it has to be pointed out that Wanderingdoc is a new participant in the forum and is not a physician who is actively working in Canada. His post was then subsequently followed up by what can only be interpreted as a trolling one from DBD (site rule 4) as otherwise this would not have made sense in view of our profession being liable to tax just as any other profession.
I as well as Snoopdawg been spent considerable time explaining how we do not put money first, how as doctors working in Canada we are extremely ethical and caring to our patients. I explained that cherry picking patients cannot take place. My subsequent thoughts I feel were well explained in post 710 and then went back onto thread to discuss with a prospective family physician how potentially different it was working in Canada compared to the UK, something hopefully helpful to other physicians considering the move.
Novocastrian then suggests "that family physicians in Canada were more interested in maximising income streams and acting in the best interest of their patients" this comment is offensive to family physicians and particularly those reading this on this forum. SnoopDawg wrote I feel a well considered post which summed up the situation very well but the pair of them chose to ignore it.
Having explained in quite significant detail how we practice medicine and ethically, and diligently conduct business to the benefit of our patients in Canada, they yet again both chose to completely ignore what we had said and clearly declined to answer my question with regard to how they felt we should conduct our business any differently.
It is ironic that Novocastrian was affronted by what he calls personal abuse-considering his offensive posts.Surely he cannot be surprised if strong responses are thrown back at him?
It has rapidly become evident that Novocastrian has truly no concept about how physicians are paid in Canada nor indeed the definition of profits within this concept. I think the pair of them believe that the system should be run identically to that in the UK. As we tried to explain, it isn't, nor can it be but it can be followed in an ethical way which benefits patients as well as the doctors who look after these patients. I believe that most family physicians would hopefully follow this ethical route, I know that myself and Snoop work hard, do as good a job as we can for our patients and expect reasonable remuneration for this, no more no less.
I certainly do not see our job as above anyone else's nor have I ever suggested this. I strongly feel that this thread has been completely derailed by two people who have clearly a significant axe to grind with physicians for whatever reason and they continue and repeatedly assert that physicians are totally financially motivated, putting money before patients which is so far from the truth and so incredibly offensive that I have to say that inaction by moderators speaks volumes.
SnoopDawg particularly has contributed a lot to this thread and because of the actions of these two within a simple matter of about six posts from each of them out of 737 then this, I feel incredibly valuable resource has almost certainly been lost. Maybe that is what the initial aim was. I have no idea Maybe I should congratulate and say job well done, mission accomplished dbd and Novocastrian- should you feel proud? No. I certainly don't. Do you probably care? Almost certainly not. Have I just wasted 45 minutes of my life writing this? Probably, but I felt that it was right that I did so, it needed to be said.
Last edited by Stinkypup; Nov 8th 2017 at 6:59 am.
Nov 8th 2017, 8:29 pm
#39
Born again atheist
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Re: Calling on Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
This thread has been running now for just shy of five years. It has had way more than 700 posts an absolute majority of these posts have been either inquiring or indeed responding to inquiries to help family physicians/physicians considering moving to Canada. It serves really no other purpose, it is for all intents and purposes a post that one would typically find in the immigration forum. Up until very recently, I believe that physicians found useful information to help guide them through the lengthy process of potentially emigrating to Canada. If indeed this thread was in the immigration forum, had such thread drifts occurred, then moderators would have rapidly redirected things back on track and suggested such discussions should occur elsewhere off that forum.
It is clear that moderators feel that this is some trivial spat that can be solved by telling people that they should ignore the other parties. Whilst this is a simple solution on their part, it is certainly not I feel appropriate in this instance. If I were to do so then I would have no idea as to any further comments that potentially could put off other physicians who are considering moving to Canada because of two posters having an inexplicable seemingly pathological mistrust of the doctors who they see as people who simply put money before care.
Novocastrian's initial comment centred in around the expression 'income generator' which I would admit is not a good expression but it has to be pointed out that Wanderingdoc is a new participant in the forum and is not a physician who is actively working in Canada. His post was then subsequently followed up by what can only be interpreted as a trolling one from DBD (site rule 4) as otherwise this would not have made sense in view of our profession being liable to tax just as any other profession.
I as well as Snoopdawg been spent considerable time explaining how we do not put money first, how as doctors working in Canada we are extremely ethical and caring to our patients. I explained that cherry picking patients cannot take place. My subsequent thoughts I feel were well explained in post 710 and then went back onto thread to discuss with a prospective family physician how potentially different it was working in Canada compared to the UK, something hopefully helpful to other physicians considering the move.
Novocastrian then suggests "that family physicians in Canada were more interested in maximising income streams and acting in the best interest of their patients" this comment is offensive to family physicians and particularly those reading this on this forum. SnoopDawg wrote I feel a well considered post which summed up the situation very well but the pair of them chose to ignore it.
Having explained in quite significant detail how we practice medicine and ethically, and diligently conduct business to the benefit of our patients in Canada, they yet again both chose to completely ignore what we had said and clearly declined to answer my question with regard to how they felt we should conduct our business any differently.
It is ironic that Novocastrian was affronted by what he calls personal abuse-considering his offensive posts.Surely he cannot be surprised if strong responses are thrown back at him?
It has rapidly become evident that Novocastrian has truly no concept about how physicians are paid in Canada nor indeed the definition of profits within this concept. I think the pair of them believe that the system should be run identically to that in the UK. As we tried to explain, it isn't, nor can it be but it can be followed in an ethical way which benefits patients as well as the doctors who look after these patients. I believe that most family physicians would hopefully follow this ethical route, I know that myself and Snoop work hard, do as good a job as we can for our patients and expect reasonable remuneration for this, no more no less.
I certainly do not see our job as above anyone else's nor have I ever suggested this. I strongly feel that this thread has been completely derailed by two people who have clearly a significant axe to grind with physicians for whatever reason and they continue and repeatedly assert that physicians are totally financially motivated, putting money before patients which is so far from the truth and so incredibly offensive that I have to say that inaction by moderators speaks volumes.
SnoopDawg particularly has contributed a lot to this thread and because of the actions of these two within a simple matter of about six posts from each of them out of 737 then this, I feel incredibly valuable resource has almost certainly been lost. Maybe that is what the initial aim was. I have no idea Maybe I should congratulate and say job well done, mission accomplished dbd and Novocastrian- should you feel proud? No. I certainly don't. Do you probably care? Almost certainly not. Have I just wasted 45 minutes of my life writing this? Probably, but I felt that it was right that I did so, it needed to be said.
It is clear that moderators feel that this is some trivial spat that can be solved by telling people that they should ignore the other parties. Whilst this is a simple solution on their part, it is certainly not I feel appropriate in this instance. If I were to do so then I would have no idea as to any further comments that potentially could put off other physicians who are considering moving to Canada because of two posters having an inexplicable seemingly pathological mistrust of the doctors who they see as people who simply put money before care.
Novocastrian's initial comment centred in around the expression 'income generator' which I would admit is not a good expression but it has to be pointed out that Wanderingdoc is a new participant in the forum and is not a physician who is actively working in Canada. His post was then subsequently followed up by what can only be interpreted as a trolling one from DBD (site rule 4) as otherwise this would not have made sense in view of our profession being liable to tax just as any other profession.
I as well as Snoopdawg been spent considerable time explaining how we do not put money first, how as doctors working in Canada we are extremely ethical and caring to our patients. I explained that cherry picking patients cannot take place. My subsequent thoughts I feel were well explained in post 710 and then went back onto thread to discuss with a prospective family physician how potentially different it was working in Canada compared to the UK, something hopefully helpful to other physicians considering the move.
Novocastrian then suggests "that family physicians in Canada were more interested in maximising income streams and acting in the best interest of their patients" this comment is offensive to family physicians and particularly those reading this on this forum. SnoopDawg wrote I feel a well considered post which summed up the situation very well but the pair of them chose to ignore it.
Having explained in quite significant detail how we practice medicine and ethically, and diligently conduct business to the benefit of our patients in Canada, they yet again both chose to completely ignore what we had said and clearly declined to answer my question with regard to how they felt we should conduct our business any differently.
It is ironic that Novocastrian was affronted by what he calls personal abuse-considering his offensive posts.Surely he cannot be surprised if strong responses are thrown back at him?
It has rapidly become evident that Novocastrian has truly no concept about how physicians are paid in Canada nor indeed the definition of profits within this concept. I think the pair of them believe that the system should be run identically to that in the UK. As we tried to explain, it isn't, nor can it be but it can be followed in an ethical way which benefits patients as well as the doctors who look after these patients. I believe that most family physicians would hopefully follow this ethical route, I know that myself and Snoop work hard, do as good a job as we can for our patients and expect reasonable remuneration for this, no more no less.
I certainly do not see our job as above anyone else's nor have I ever suggested this. I strongly feel that this thread has been completely derailed by two people who have clearly a significant axe to grind with physicians for whatever reason and they continue and repeatedly assert that physicians are totally financially motivated, putting money before patients which is so far from the truth and so incredibly offensive that I have to say that inaction by moderators speaks volumes.
SnoopDawg particularly has contributed a lot to this thread and because of the actions of these two within a simple matter of about six posts from each of them out of 737 then this, I feel incredibly valuable resource has almost certainly been lost. Maybe that is what the initial aim was. I have no idea Maybe I should congratulate and say job well done, mission accomplished dbd and Novocastrian- should you feel proud? No. I certainly don't. Do you probably care? Almost certainly not. Have I just wasted 45 minutes of my life writing this? Probably, but I felt that it was right that I did so, it needed to be said.
I'm sorry that Stinky felt it necessary to waste three quarters of an hour of his valuable time, but doubtless not billable time, in commenting on critical remarks concerning the Canadian health care system,in terms of economics and morality.
To be honest, the attitude of the protagonists only reinforces my impression of the comparison I made earlier between Canadian GPs and the priesthood of much earlier centuries.
Any criticism is heresy, So I suppose I'm for the ducking stool.
Last edited by Novocastrian; Nov 8th 2017 at 8:33 pm.
Nov 8th 2017, 8:50 pm
#40
Forum Regular
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 158
Re: Calling on Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
This will be my last post on this thread. Probably. I'll leave it to all you special prima donnas who have left the NHS to become self-employed business men and women in the promised land of Canada to sort out your own income maximising streams.
I'm sorry that Stinky felt it necessary to waste three quarters of an hour of his valuable time, but doubtless not billable time, in commenting on critical remarks concerning the Canadian health care system,in terms of economics and morality.
To be honest, the attitude of the protagonists only reinforces my impression of the comparison I made earlier between Canadian GPs and the priesthood of much earlier centuries.
Any criticism is heresy, So I suppose I'm for the ducking stool.
I'm sorry that Stinky felt it necessary to waste three quarters of an hour of his valuable time, but doubtless not billable time, in commenting on critical remarks concerning the Canadian health care system,in terms of economics and morality.
To be honest, the attitude of the protagonists only reinforces my impression of the comparison I made earlier between Canadian GPs and the priesthood of much earlier centuries.
Any criticism is heresy, So I suppose I'm for the ducking stool.
I work in the NHS and am self employed as a locum. No different to Canada. I have previously been a partner - again self employed and running a business. From Novocastrians location they arent even in Canada?? I am very confused?? I have no clue as to why this thread has headed down this path but it isnt helpful and several years of very helpful information has been flushed down the toilet
For new folk on here this isnt my experience of primary care in Canada and seems like some folk with an axe to grind have utilised this platform and they are best ignored.
If folk want a GP perspective of heading across to Canada then using a private message will be the best source of info...good luck its a tough process!
Nov 8th 2017, 9:03 pm
#41
Banned
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 19,879
Re: Calling on Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Do I have to come and slap wrists?
The thread appears to be a helpful resource for those considering coming to work in Canada as Physicians and the like. Generally, it's better to have the information 'for all to see' rather than by private messaging as that way any erroneous information can be corrected.
Now let's drop the mud slinging and get back to the original purpose of the thread, shall we?
"I will say this only once"
The thread appears to be a helpful resource for those considering coming to work in Canada as Physicians and the like. Generally, it's better to have the information 'for all to see' rather than by private messaging as that way any erroneous information can be corrected.
Now let's drop the mud slinging and get back to the original purpose of the thread, shall we?
"I will say this only once"
Nov 8th 2017, 9:36 pm
#42
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 50,763
Nov 9th 2017, 8:42 am
#43
`
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 38,611
re: A conversation and debate re Canada FP health services v UK NHS
Right then.
As requests from the lovely Canada mods to discuss, debate, ignore or step away from keyboards is not being heeded & after consultation between the Canada mods who included myself, it has been decided to split the last few pages of posts from this thread to their own discussion thread .
As it is late up on the NH but a late Spring evening for me , it falls on my watch to spend my time sorting that out whilst MrBEVs sorts out tea. My mods will hopefully be a-bed.
This should not have been necessary but for certain posters not heeding the requests and advice from the moderators .
This is BE & here we aim to allow discussion , debate and points of view to be aired relatively freely within the site rules. Not everyone is going to agree all of the time and so sometimes PoV are going to clash & even really clash depending on the -- wait for it -- subjective PoV.
Two ways forward when views & opinions are polarised.
1 - Engage and discuss .
2 - Disengage and withdraw.
I'll take this moment to remind everyone that moderators are volunteers. They give of their free time. They operate within the framework of the site rules & are impartial. Pot shots at mods helps no-one . Listening does.
Y'know. I'm not happy to read all this carry on. I love the Canada forum and all of the posters that contribute.
Make. Your. Peace.
As requests from the lovely Canada mods to discuss, debate, ignore or step away from keyboards is not being heeded & after consultation between the Canada mods who included myself, it has been decided to split the last few pages of posts from this thread to their own discussion thread .
As it is late up on the NH but a late Spring evening for me , it falls on my watch to spend my time sorting that out whilst MrBEVs sorts out tea. My mods will hopefully be a-bed.
This should not have been necessary but for certain posters not heeding the requests and advice from the moderators .
This is BE & here we aim to allow discussion , debate and points of view to be aired relatively freely within the site rules. Not everyone is going to agree all of the time and so sometimes PoV are going to clash & even really clash depending on the -- wait for it -- subjective PoV.
Two ways forward when views & opinions are polarised.
1 - Engage and discuss .
2 - Disengage and withdraw.
I'll take this moment to remind everyone that moderators are volunteers. They give of their free time. They operate within the framework of the site rules & are impartial. Pot shots at mods helps no-one . Listening does.
Y'know. I'm not happy to read all this carry on. I love the Canada forum and all of the posters that contribute.
Make. Your. Peace.
Last edited by BEVS; Nov 9th 2017 at 9:38 am.
