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Confused.. Why Canada?

Confused.. Why Canada?

Old Nov 5th 2007, 4:47 pm
  #121  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
For those of you in Canada who say that you work from home, is this the type of work you could have done anywhere? Or did moving to Canada afford you the opportunity of this lifestyle?

One point I do want to make, with all the complaints about how bad things are in the UK. You do realize that the reason you can sell up move here and buy a huge house here is because things are so DAMN GOOD in the UK, right?

You think Canadians could afford to do the same thing? No way. The British are buying up second homes, vacation properties, inverstments, all over the world. Do you see very many Canadian doing that? NO. Only the fortunate few. Whereas the British have the economic power to invest all over the world.

If you decide to go back to the UK, do you realize how hard it will be for you to get back into the housing market at anywhere near where you are now? There is no way that house prices in Canada, at least outside of the major centres are rising anywhere near what you get in the UK. And specially London. It will ALWAYS be an economic powerhouse. It has been the centre of power for hundreds of years. A property investment in London is gold. London is at the point where people are saying it may very well overtake New York as the financial capital of the world.
Nope, couldn't have afforded to buy the land, business and opportunity in the UK, so Canada kick started something unaffordable elsewhere.

Correct, house market growth in the UK and the effort I'd put into buying, renovating and selling over a long time provided the capital investment. Hurray for my endeavours!

House pricing in Kamloops has risen far more quickly than the UK during the past 2yrs, and is forecast to continue. Combine that with building a business that's added to my net worth, and I'd be 2x as well off in terms of liquid assets if I moved back to the UK.

As usual you're over simplifying circumstances and appear not to have an appreciation for what's occuring outside of TO.
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 4:53 pm
  #122  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by YYZlover View Post
I borrowed a condo in YYZ smack downtown (Wellington) 18 months ago.. The rent was CAD$900

Now - I had a slightly bigger place in UK my first 3 years there. A 1 bedroom ground floor apartment for CAD$975 including,
That is not a fair comparison. London is at least three times bigger than Toronto. The pressure on housing is much more. The London economy is much bigger. London is one of the major financial capitals of the world. If you compared New York and London maybe it might be more meaningful. And if you do that you will see that London actually comes out as being more affordable.

Anywhere outside London and the you're limited to pub food. Quality in restaurants go down hill quick. In Canada you can find a Sushi bar, and a good one, even in Georgetown.
Georgetown, if it is the one near Toronto, has become quite an upscale suburb of Toronto. It is not representative of what you will find across Canada. You are more likely to be directed to the local Tim Hortons or McDonalds if you ask around for a restaurant.

10 years ago things in UK used to be OK. It's gone down fast and is declining still. It was declining even when I was living there.
All indications are that the UK is doing better now than it was 15 years ago. Crime is down, poverty is down. I posted a link to an Economist article earlier in the thread talking about this.

Spain, cost del sol in particular, e bit of a warning for you. It is EXPENSIVE! House prices has skyrocketed.
I was there last winter, from January to April. I rented a two bedroom apartment. It was 1000 Euros a month. Right on the golf course, in a place called La Quinta. The apartment was of very high standard. Fully furnished. Marble floors. Overlooking the golf course. It was on the market for sale for 300,000 Euros. I realize that the market is still overpriced. I don't plan on buying right away. The Spanish market is poised for a huge CRASH.

Adrian, if Spain floats your boat than go. Just be prepared that cost of living is not as cheap as it was 20 or 30 years ago.
I realize that. Having spent a few months there, somethings were cheaper than Toronto, somethings were more. Overall, I came out at about the same.
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 5:00 pm
  #123  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by R I C H View Post
As usual you're over simplifying circumstances and appear not to have an appreciation for what's occuring outside of TO.
I realize that property prices in some places out west, i.e BC and Alberta are booming. But there are many here that are not moving there. The majority of those moving here will not get the kind of returns that you have managed to obtain.

In your case, you came here and substantially changed your lifestyle, so your move makes sense.
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 5:07 pm
  #124  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
One point I do want to make, with all the complaints about how bad things are in the UK. You do realize that the reason you can sell up move here and buy a huge house here is because things are so DAMN GOOD in the UK, right?
Wrong. The reason prices are so high in the UK is because of the shortage in London, the high prices then spread out as people move further out looking for affordability! They then have to travel a long distance and the outcome is to push up prices where they have moved to and that leads to people there having to move further away to find affordability, etc etc... Its a domino effect that is well known.

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
You think Canadians could afford to do the same thing? No way. The British are buying up second homes, vacation properties, inverstments, all over the world. Do you see very many Canadian doing that? NO. Only the fortunate few. Whereas the British have the economic power to invest all over the world.
I'm sorry but this is complete and utter bollox as we would say, the average joe in the UK struggles to buy one home. Yes there are the rich, have you not heard of the have and have nots, you seem to think the roads in the UK are lined with gold.


Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
If you decide to go back to the UK, do you realize how hard it will be for you to get back into the housing market at anywhere near where you are now? There is no way that house prices in Canada, at least outside of the major centres are rising anywhere near what you get in the UK. And specially London. It will ALWAYS be an economic powerhouse. It has been the centre of power for hundreds of years. A property investment in London is gold. London is at the point where people are saying it may very well overtake New York as the financial capital of the world.
Again you sound like you're lucky enough to have a business which gives you the money to do things us ordinary folk cannot do. London property prices makes it outside the grasp of most people, unless you are lucky and have a property from when prices were not as bad to sell you cannot get on the ladder.

You base most of your argument on a few years living in London at college more than 15 years ago. I SAY AGAIN I LIVED THERE AT THAT TIME TOO, IT HAS CHANGED!!!!!

Unless you have a lot of disposable income it can be a nightmare.
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 5:08 pm
  #125  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post

All indications are that the UK is doing better now than it was 15 years ago. Crime is down, poverty is down.
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 5:11 pm
  #126  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by PeterF View Post
Well, if you wanna laugh, you can laugh at the Economist. You seem to know more than they do.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/dis...ory_id=8629539

Yet in a way it is odd that Britain's spirits should be low. The place is enjoying a period of extraordinary prosperity. Fourteen years of stable growth have kept unemployment down. There have been social gains as well as economic ones: fewer children and pensioners live in poverty than ten years ago. Crime is broadly lower. And with prosperity has come renewed political clout. Britain has helped to shape aid for Africa, the debate on climate change, European enlargement and, last week, negotiations to restart world trade talks.
Here I will even copy some of it over for you.
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 5:18 pm
  #127  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
For those of you in Canada who say that you work from home, is this the type of work you could have done anywhere? Or did moving to Canada afford you the opportunity of this lifestyle?
I think it's likely much easier to work from home in the UK, Canada only has the required infra-structure in major urbans centres while even the more remote places in the UK have support for mobile telephones and high speed internet.
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 5:25 pm
  #128  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

The Economist is obviously talking about a different UK from the one I'm in, most people here struggle with one mortgage on two incomes, crime is rampant, teen gangs run most of the streets, cops don't bother attending a lot of calls made to them, the gap between the rich and poor is increasing etc. etc. As usual they seem to deem London and the south-east as being "the UK", I'd like to send them to my hometown for a month and we'll see if they think the place is in such great shape
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 6:41 pm
  #129  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

If you're a first time buyer these days you face a 40 year interest only mortgage being offered at up to 8 times your salary....

You then have to fight to avoid being one of the thousands of repossessions each month (which is climbing).

Or you could be one of the many people accessing and using all of their properties equity to make the monthly payments (or buy an Evo 9 if your shite with money).

I just don't see how this is good!

Folk are terrified of not getting on to the housing ladder and will go to any length to get a foothold.

Mass hysteria is the major reason for house price increases.... people are afraid that the house price increases will never stop... well it is, and in many cases it has started to fall.. I know of two people in the last month who have dropped their house prices by over £30k each! There are more and more areas of the UK where houses sit unsold.... now the panic will go the other way with people trying to offload their property in order to harvest some of the 'false' profit they believe they have.. we have been here before!

AdrianTO, you have to stop listening to the fairies.. England isn't 'tea with the Queen' or 'changing of the guards' no more!
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 8:49 pm
  #130  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by mc_dub View Post
The Economist is obviously talking about a different UK from the one I'm in, most people here struggle with one mortgage on two incomes, crime is rampant, teen gangs run most of the streets, cops don't bother attending a lot of calls made to them, the gap between the rich and poor is increasing etc. etc. As usual they seem to deem London and the south-east as being "the UK", I'd like to send them to my hometown for a month and we'll see if they think the place is in such great shape
Every one of this things is becoming an issue here. You talk longingly about Scarborough and Etobicoke, yet those two areas are the biggest dumps and worst areas of town to live in and send children to school.

Yes, it could be that YOUR town is having particular troubles. There are many reasons why a particular town or region of a country could be in decline. It could be because the primary employer has shut down or because of a shifting economy. This does not mean that the country as a whole is in decline. Further, while there are many families in the UK that might be feeling "recessionary", it appear that the UK as a whole is prospering like never before.

Not ALL of the UK is a crime infested, rat hole which is what you seem to be implying. I am sure you can find a better standard of living and quality of life in other parts of the country.
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 8:52 pm
  #131  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by PeterF View Post
Wrong. The reason prices are so high in the UK is because of the shortage in London,
Originally Posted by Polar Bear View Post
Mass hysteria is the major reason for house price increases....!
So which is it?
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 8:55 pm
  #132  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

PeterF is correct for the late nineties & early naughties but lately over the last 3 years we face the crazy situation where nobody can get onto the housing ladder without debt beyond what is reasonable
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 8:56 pm
  #133  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
Well, if you wanna laugh, you can laugh at the Economist. You seem to know more than they do.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/dis...ory_id=8629539



Here I will even copy some of it over for you.
Why not laugh? Not least because you seem to have misread - or misunderstood - the article you make reference to. The paragraph you selectively quote, Adrian, from an Economist leading article, stands out even within the article itself as going against the grain. Since you're keen on the Economist (and its thought-pieces) as a source, allow me to quote more from the same article:

[Britain] is bored and disillusioned with politicians, not least with Tony Blair. It is unimpressed by public services, despite the public money Mr Blair has poured into them. It is cross about rising taxes and interest rates. It is concerned about social cohesion and frightened by its home-grown bombers.
That's from the opening paragraph - the observation of the current (well, Feb 2007) state of affairs that leads in to the rest of the article.

But globalisation has social, as well as economic, consequences. The flow of foreigners into Britain has accelerated over the past ten years, partly because of demand (booming economies need new workers) and partly because of supply (developing-country disorder and new entrants into the European Union).
This is not a position I agree with, but if you read some of the threads on this board you will see that it's a recurring theme of social unease that pushes people to look to a new life abroad (even if a few miss the startling irony of that). The Economist piece supports this to an extent:

But the government's policy has not helped. It chose long ago not to foist a common national identity on new citizens but to allow and indeed encourage them to retain the dress and language, faith and customs they came with.
Yes, Britain's economy has done very well, thank you, over the last decade or so. But that in itself causes problems. Posters here have talked about that fact that the housing market is hugely affected by the lack of supply to meet a huge demand. This has skewed the market in London and much of the south-east quarter of the country beyond the reach of those unlucky enough not to be already on the ladder: this section of the population includes pretty much everybody under the age of about 35. The London that you may remember from the early 1990s has changed beyond recognition - I know, I lived there for pretty much the whole of that decade, and until the summer of last year.

The fact remains that there is a significant social malaise across the country. Some sections of society (the very wealthy, but they probably spent at least some of the year abroad anyway; those like you who are self-employed in a service industry, but they know they could live and work anywhere, so don't have the same pressure) are insulated to a degree, but I think you significantly underestimate the different scale and scope of the ratrace in London and Toronto. I'll limit my comments on this to London and the GTA, because that's where I've lived- and that seems to have been the comparison in your mind at the start of this thread.

Many of us have come to Canada for pretty basic reasons - in my case, there was an opportunity through my work, I would be able to have more living space for the same commute, that commute would be less unpleasant, my kids wouldn't be in a lottery for a place at our local state school, etc etc. (And considering that I didn't have an option but to commute, I'd far rather trust my journey to GO and/or TTC than to South West Trains and London Underground).

I don't recognise some of your characterisations of Toronto. Granted, I'm a suburbanite who rides the GO every day to get downtown, but out here in the wasteland of dystopian Oakville (thanks, dbd...) I know all my neighbours for about half a dozen houses in each direction, have partied with them, taken my kids to swim in their pools... my 4-year-old plays ball or rides his bike on the street with the neighbours' kids (I can't imagine that happening in Chiswick). I don't think I've ever seen a bar in TO that is not busy, or if not busy at least occupied; the punters have got to come from somewhere.
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 9:05 pm
  #134  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
even if a few miss the startling irony of that).
if you can't beat them... join them!
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Old Nov 5th 2007, 9:07 pm
  #135  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
That is not a fair comparison. London is at least three times bigger than Toronto. The pressure on housing is much more. The London economy is much bigger. London is one of the major financial capitals of the world. If you compared New York and London maybe it might be more meaningful. And if you do that you will see that London actually comes out as being more affordable.
Did I say my comparison was Toronto V London? No I did not and it was not. It was a comparison between Toronto and a city 2 hrs west of London, which is classed as commutable to London and where house prices are in the range of $500k to $600k

All indications are that the UK is doing better now than it was 15 years ago. Crime is down, poverty is down. I posted a link to an Economist article earlier in the thread talking about this.
And because it was in a newspaper/on the internet it has to be true?

Drug use is up. Weed is a class C drug and it's widely spread in the youth. 15 y/o kids and younger are using drugs of all sorts. Ketamine, weed, cocain, speed and so on. I've never encountered as many drug users as I did while living in UK and I'm in the music business.


I was there last winter, from January to April. I rented a two bedroom apartment. It was 1000 Euros a month. Right on the golf course, in a place called La Quinta. The apartment was of very high standard. Fully furnished. Marble floors. Overlooking the golf course. It was on the market for sale for 300,000 Euros. I realize that the market is still overpriced. I don't plan on buying right away. The Spanish market is poised for a huge CRASH.
That would make it roughly CAD $1350. Sounds about right.
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