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Confused.. Why Canada?

Confused.. Why Canada?

Old Nov 9th 2007, 7:55 pm
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Tell you what Adrian, if we just say "Ok, you're right", will you just shut up?
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Old Nov 9th 2007, 8:03 pm
  #212  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post

- One guy I know works for BT in West Ealing. Lives 15 mins away. Bought a house a few years ago for around 250,000 Pounds. Gets back home at 3 PM. Spends a lot of time with his family. Both his kids are doing very well at school. His brother, same thing, lives somewhere in Uxbridge, works close by, drives a BMW, wife works part time. Not particular well off, either of them. Very middle class.

- My cousin, lives in Datchett. Moved to the UK about 10 years ago from the USA. Owns a house there that is worth close to half a million pounds. Works close by. His wife has an MBA, but she doesn't work. She stays home and takes care of the kids. How can he do it? He went from the USA with nothing. Has no intention of going back.
I have been following this thread with interest but now feel compelled to comment. I am slightly confused as to why you are using the two examples above as reasons why people should stay in the UK and not move to Canada? To me they seem to give every reason to emigrate from the UK asap! Firstly, Datchet, Uxbridge and West Ealing are not exactly desirable locations - I'm sure that nobody returning to the UK from abroad would ever choose to live in any of those places. Datchet is the best of the bunch but is still really just an area of an incredibly undesirable town, Slough, and West Ealing is also on the outskirts of some really horrible places. Uxbridge is also pretty unpleasant and close to some very grotty and underprivileged areas. So none are particularly attractive or desirable.

You also say that the guy in West Ealing bought a house 'a few years ago' for £250,000 - but I bet that same, perfectly ordinary house, is today worth a huge amount more. My husband and I bought our house 3 1/2 yrs ago for £250,000 but it's now worth £500,000. I should point out that it is a small unattractive 1970's house on an estate with a 30ft garden - AND WORTH £500,000!!! Absolutely ridiculous. I have now given up work to raise our two very young children and we could not afford to buy our own house now if it were on the open market. Crazy house prices and an inability to afford a decent standard of living are probably one of the main reasons for people to leave the UK I would imagine. We are now stuck in the house which although perfectly nice, is hardly my dream home. But we cannot move up the ladder unless we move to a completely different region which we do not want to do as all of our friends and family are here. I should also point out that we pay £1200 in mortgage repayments alone to live in this house, despite the fact that our mortgage is only 40% of the value of the property.

So, in my view, the reasons you have given are perfect examples of why people should take their money and run away from the UK!!

Last edited by christmasoompa; Nov 9th 2007 at 8:12 pm.
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Old Nov 9th 2007, 8:09 pm
  #213  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
What makes you think they are rich? That is my whole point. As I stated in my post, they live a very middle class life style. They are not rich at all and can still afford a lifestyle that many of you people claim to be out of your reach in the UK.

I know what you consider "rich people" as well. I didn't even post about their lifestyles because I understand that they are the exception. For example, a guy that I went to university with runs a Specsavers franchise. He came to see me when I was in Spain. We were out and he came across a condo he liked, he went in and bought it on his Visa debit card. He had that much money in his checking account.

But these earlier examples I gave are hardly people that I would classify as rich.
Those of us aged 35+ that have had the opportunity to climb the UK housing ladder, build up equity and lead middle class lifestyles (whatever those are) are in fortunate positions.

An average UK detached home now costs £353,096 (source: BBC) - the following article illustrates just how difficult it now is for an average salary to provide a roof over your head:

Firstrung are reporting that, based on the new mortgage approval figures released by the BBA, up to a 100% of the average single monthly income for new mortgagees accounts for household expenditure only...

Data released yesterday from the British Bankers Association revealed that the average new mortgage approval has now reached record levels of £152,800. Paul Holmes, operations director of Firstrung, has grave concerns that the cost of this average mortgage has finally breached the peak of affordability for those who have taken out recent mortgages - whether these be first time buyers, buy to let investors, or those re-mortgaging.

Using Firstrung's calculations, taking into consideration the costs of servicing a repayment mortgage of this size, whilst allowing for ongoing ancillary home expenditure, Firstrung estimate that those on an average salary will be able to cover their household expenditure only:

Paul Holmes

"The average salary in the UK (according to ONS) is approx. 22K. A Gross salary of £21,900, less tax of £3400 and NIC of £1837, gives a monthly net of £1388.

"A £152,800 REPAYMENT mortgage at an interest rate of 7% over 25 years costs monthly £1080"

Other yearly costs could be:

C/Tax 1400
Insurance 350
Phone 360
Internet 250
Water 200
TV 136
Gas/Elect 1000
------
3696 / 12 = £308
-------
Total household monthly outgoings - £1388
"These figures prove that one person's entire average salary is swallowed up to pay for the household expenditure. A new mortgagee would then have to rely on other income to survive.

"Spokesmen for the mortgage industry and the Government are often quoted as suggesting that affordability levels have yet to reach the peak of the problems witnessed in the housing crash of the late 80's early 90's.

"However, our statistics dispute this. With 100% of a single average salary now required to cover household expenditure only, levels of affordability have surely never been so severe, certainly not since rates reached 15%."

Holmes also points out that Firstrung's calculations are based on reasonable assumptions and do not take into account such basic consideration as; clothing, travel costs, or food:

"It's important to avoid sensationalism with this type of article, however, we do feel that the recent mortgage figures released by the BBA represent a significant high 'watermark' not witnessed before. We would suggest that approved mortgages are now not only at historically high levels, but have also breached affordability measures by some distance.

"These figures should also be viewed in the context that when rates reached 15% other household expenditure was a fraction of todays; water bills, council tax, and insurance costs were a fraction of todays costs."


Of course, in many parts of the UK (and in London especially), £152,800 isn't going to allow you to buy anything, so a hefty amount of savings will be needed too. It's this kind of pressure and situation that many people are pissed off with, putting aside other perceptions concerning quality of life.
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Old Nov 9th 2007, 8:16 pm
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by christmasoompa View Post
Firstly, Datchet, Uxbridge and West Ealing are not exactly desirable locations - I'm sure that nobody returning to the UK from abroad would ever choose to live in any of those places.
Earlier posters claim that I know "rich people", very few people can afford those lifestyles and these people are the exception, now you are telling me the opposite, that they live in horrible, seedy areas where nobody would want to live.

Which one is it?

And if your house is 500,000 pounds, you could sell it and afford a pretty nice place somewhere away from London, even a nice villa somewhere in Europe. Why do you have to come to Canada for a change in your lifestyle?
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Old Nov 9th 2007, 8:21 pm
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
Why do you have to come to Canada for a change in your lifestyle?
To get away from people like you heading the other way?

I asked the same question about why you have to leave canada to get away from the ills of the GTA. Same question really, why do you have to move to spain to change your lifestyle?

Enough already, we answered the question why canada.. some people do it to cash in equity and live away from the chavy lawlessness of the UK but still have English as a first language. Some people do it as an adventure, some people just come here by accident, or because they met a canadian and fell in love. You didnt like the answers, but it hasnt changed them any, and its not going to.

Next please.

I would ask everyone else to read the second part of my sig file.

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Old Nov 9th 2007, 8:23 pm
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
Earlier posters claim that I know "rich people", very few people can afford those lifestyles and these people are the exception, now you are telling me the opposite, that they live in horrible, seedy areas where nobody would want to live.

Which one is it?

And if your house is 500,000 pounds, you could sell it and afford a pretty nice place somewhere away from London, even a nice villa somewhere in Europe. Why do you have to come to Canada for a change in your lifestyle?
Bazz didn't specify which of your friends are 'rich', but your post suggests your cousin is comfortably well off (single income household large enough to support a relatively pricey house and family). Doesn't change the fact his expensive home's in a grotty area. Isn't that just proving the point that apparent wealth in the UK doesn't mean it'll support a lifestyle that those of us that have chosen Canada can now enjoy?

BTW, nice villas in Europe aren't exactly inexpensive, and then we get back to the job/language/weather/lifestyle arguments that have all been aired previously.
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Old Nov 9th 2007, 8:27 pm
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
Earlier posters claim that I know "rich people", very few people can afford those lifestyles and these people are the exception, now you are telling me the opposite, that they live in horrible, seedy areas where nobody would want to live.

Which one is it?

And if your house is 500,000 pounds, you could sell it and afford a pretty nice place somewhere away from London, even a nice villa somewhere in Europe. Why do you have to come to Canada for a change in your lifestyle?
I don't want to speak for other people and I can only assume that they claimed they were 'rich people' simply because of the fact that their houses are clearly worth a large amount of money now - this is despite the area they are in, not because of. It is simply due to the ludicrous inflation of house prices in the UK. Or perhaps they assumed the areas you mentioned were desirable as that is what you had implied, and didn't know otherwise. They may not have known those areas terribly well whereas I live close to them all and have lived very close to them in the past. It is an area I have lived in for over 30 years.

As for your last question, why on earth would you assume we want 'a nice villa somewhere in Europe' - personally I can't imagine anything worse! As it happens, we're not coming to Canada for a change in our lifestyle as we are perfectly happy with it despite the fact that we cannot improve it due to the house prices here. We're simply moving abroad as my husband has been asked to set up a North American office for his company, but it will only be for 2 years and not a permanent move.
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Old Nov 9th 2007, 8:30 pm
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by R I C H View Post
Doesn't change the fact his expensive home's in a grotty area. Isn't that just proving the point that apparent wealth in the UK doesn't mean it'll support a lifestyle that those of us that have chosen Canada can now enjoy?
Exactly the point I was trying to make, but far more eloquently put! Thank you!

Last edited by christmasoompa; Nov 9th 2007 at 8:41 pm.
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Old Nov 9th 2007, 8:41 pm
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
What makes you think they are rich? That is my whole point. As I stated in my post, they live a very middle class life style. They are not rich at all and can still afford a lifestyle that many of you people claim to be out of your reach in the UK.

I know what you consider "rich people" as well. I didn't even post about their lifestyles because I understand that they are the exception. For example, a guy that I went to university with runs a Specsavers franchise. He came to see me when I was in Spain. We were out and he came across a condo he liked, he went in and bought it on his Visa debit card. He had that much money in his checking account.

But these earlier examples I gave are hardly people that I would classify as rich.
You really don't get it, do you? The point that has been made over and again about property prices in London and the South East of the UK is that they have put property ownership out of the reach of all but the wealthiest few percent of people in the market for their first house, and prohibit others from trading up the property ladder except by moving to an area much further from work and so reducing their quality of life by adding a long commute to the mix.

And as for your claim that these people "are not rich at all" - you go on in the very same sentence to provide a pretty succinct definition of "rich" - people who "can afford a lifestyle that many of you people claim to be out of your reach." I say again, your basis of comparison is rather unrealistic, and perhaps you should stop to consider what goes on in the real world away from half-million-pound houses in outer suburbia.

I thought I might try and answer your original question more fully from my own perspective, to give you an idea of the dilemma you seem determined to misunderstand:

I used to live in Chiswick, and worked at various times locally, in Slough and in central London. I didn't consider that we were particularly badly off - in fact by most measures we lived very comfortably. But when we ran out of space in our 700sq ft 2-bed apartment (due to future arrival of second child) we considered our options for trading up.

Buying a bigger place in the area was completely out of the question financially; we were considering moving out to somewhere along an arc from roughly Petersfield to Basingstoke to find something affordable. That would have given me a total commuting time of around three hours round trip every day. The opportunity came up through work to move to Toronto - I took it, as the trade-off in quality of life was a strong net positive for me.

Here, I still commute to the city centre to work, the journey time being broadly equivalent to my Chiswick commute. But rather than dealing with South West Trains, standing 90% of the time in both directions, I take the GO - a guaranteed seat in the morning as my train starts from my station, and a 90%+ hit-rate for a seat on the way home. Home, that cost a bit less than we sold the Chiswick flat for, is 2,000sq ft of single-family house on a decent sized lot, in a family-friendly neighbourhood, shops within walking distance, etc etc.

I certainly couldn't afford the lifestyle I have now if I were still in the UK. I had both family and work reasons for choosing Canada over other potential non-UK places to live and work, but it really wasn't a difficult decision to come to Canada.

There, I hope that answers "why Canada." Can we stop now, please?
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Old Nov 9th 2007, 8:45 pm
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Yabbut Why

Because, just because.
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Old Nov 9th 2007, 9:17 pm
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
And if your house is 500,000 pounds, you could sell it and afford a pretty nice place somewhere away from London, even a nice villa somewhere in Europe. Why do you have to come to Canada for a change in your lifestyle?
Why on earth would you want to live in Europe? Its full of foreigners.
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Old Nov 9th 2007, 9:43 pm
  #222  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by Surrey Expat View Post
Why on earth would you want to live in Europe? Its full of foreigners.
And Canada isn't?
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Old Nov 9th 2007, 11:07 pm
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by AdrianTO View Post
Where in Canada are you planning to move to? In many areas of Toronto, and probably Vancouver and Montreal as well you will find that this is the exact same scenario. And these are not necessarily the lower income areas. This is the same story even in many upscale neighbourhoods. My brother sends his son to a French immersion school in Richmond Hill. And I would say that 90% of the students are Chinese. In other areas, there is more of a mix, but 80 to 90% of the students come from a background where english is a second language. Sure, you can move to some remote part of Canada. But, then why bother coming here?



Out of curiosity, why did you reject some of these places?
My objection is not with race or ethnicity - but rather that children starting have no English, placing language teachers in all classes! Added to racial tensions which are left unaddressed and unreported.

Our destination in Canada is LaSalle, Ontario.

Rejected places:
Cornwall, decent property is very expensive.
Scotland, standard of living lower than were we are now.
Spain and Tenerife, school options for the kids, placed me in the exact position I object to now - to go to a Spanish my kids have insufficient langauge skills. To go to an English school, insults the Spanish people!
Plus this is mainly a holiday environment, with a transient population.
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Old Nov 9th 2007, 11:14 pm
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by Danny B View Post
And Canada isn't?
No we're Canadians!
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Old Nov 10th 2007, 12:05 am
  #225  
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Default Re: Confused.. Why Canada?

Originally Posted by Surrey Expat View Post
No we're Canadians!
Maybe that's the problem with Britain at the moment. If you are a second generation East Indian ie- your parents moved from India to the UK and you were born in the UK then you are classed as being Indian until the day you die.
The same scenario in Canada and you would be Canadian..
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