re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Link from Healthmatch bc which to my mind says I won't have to do an English exam as my medical education at uni was in English

https://www.healthmatchbc.org/Physicians/Family-Physicians-GPs/Licensing.aspx

Which is great. One less hoop to jump. Still about another 50 mind you...

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

The English exam is for PR application.....not license to practice. My husband did not need it for Ontario either.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Unfortunately Gowest I wish you were right. You have pointed out exactly what I have found so ridiculous; that to get licensure you are exempt from having to do ielts if your medical eduction was in english. Most people I'm sure would then think it would normally follow that to get permanent residency that this fact should also exempt you from sitting ielts but it doesn't. Maybe not a money maker for CIC but pointless bureaucracy all the same and a waste of money for english speakers who have previously been told that they are exempt from sitting ielts for licensure.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Nobody is forcing your arm to live or work here... If you think it's all so beaurocratic don't do it...

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Totally agree! Seriously if you think that an English test is bureaucratic, then I would give up now. 7+ years after starting our journey ,we still have hoops to jump, do I mind- no not really, we chose to move, we weren't invited, Canada sets the rules not me. Its been hard work but we are in a better place so I'm grateful.The CPSA etc will also add to your work! We are just about to apply for citizenship, so more hoops/bureaucracy but again, our choice!!!

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

I knew I spelt it wrong!!! Maybe I need the English test 😉

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Hello folks
I was away & couldn't reply to the discussion generated by *********.com. I have to rely on what ever I read on forums & Youtube as i myself have never been to Canada. I am not an NHS recruiter & myself am interested in leaving uk even before i joined Gp training. There is no ideal place or nirvana or paradise on earth but the aim is always to have a better life style with ur family close by which is difficult in uk following recent immigration changes as i am an expat here as well :(. I myself encourage my batch mates (Graduated Gp) to move but they feel they are anchored by their family commitment or are just part of the system where they feel is Ok!!! :blink:

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Imho anyone working as a GP in UK who thinks the system is ok is seriously deluded. Whether canada is their answer or not.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

I would beware of that attitude of thinking that the NHS is so bad. Having had a direct opportunity to compare healthcare systems, my husband certainly believes the NHS is way ahead in patient care. Of course that was also born out by the Commonwealth study of first world healthcare. UK number one and Canada just ahead of the U.S. at number ten!

He really gets frustrated by the 1980's I.T. the inefficiency of the structure here, the demands of the patients for unnecessary testing which wouldn't be allowed in the UK and just happens over here just because. The government has recently given Family Physicians an actually pay cut- sound familiar? Plus they have got rid of some of the benefits that we took advantage of that you won't be able to. Bear in mind also there is no pension and whilst I know it had taken a hit in the UK (we've only just left) you certainly need to be a younger immigrant GP moving here otherwise you'll probably find yourself working until the same age as the UK to build up cash in your incorporation. Also dependent on what pay structure you work for there is annual leave, my husband certainly hasn't had the annual leave off that he did in the UK and that includes no bank holiday pay etc. Well it is in effect like self employed pay in the UK but not annualised so you see it directly in your next pay packet... and you need to earn that money to build up your pension. Whilst I don't want to get into direct financial nitty gritty either, he has only earnt marginally more which just covers the loss of my job and certainly this year hasn't covered what should have gone into both our pensions.

Move for other reasons by all means but don't move because of the NHS..

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Move for other reasons by all means but don't move because of the NHS..[/QUOTE]

In response to this reply, thats why i need to be sure when i move. I have heard of few GP who have gone there & returned as they didnt like the system, life style, weather, being away from family, not having holidays & the cover or protection u get in the NHS!!.
From what u are saying that ur partner works 7 days & get paid for 7 days. In the nhs u work 5 days & get paid 5 days. off course the more u work the more u earn I guess!!
I am not blaming any system but since the introduction of revalidation the amount of Gp retiring early has increase over 9% yearly as per BMA & the intake to medical school has not increased as expected. so will this create more opportunity in uk or more brain drain only the future will tell. I would still like to try it still & if doesn't work I can always come back with some excuse :p

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

I can also only comment on my own experiences. Vastly increased out of control work load. 40% more paperwork and 30% more patient contact than 5 years ago but in real terms a 15% pay cut. And the pension that takes 24% of my after tax earnings and won't pay out until I'm 68 at which time it will be taxed again. And there's no way I could survive this job until then which is of course the point.
I've looked at the figures and income in BC will be about equal. I'm not moving for money.
And patient care in nhs. Patient wants maybe if you're articulate and middle class but not the needs of the vulnerable or mentally ill or old. This past year survival rates of the elderly in UK fell for the first time ever.
And in 5 years if the nhs hasn't been privatised I will be astounded.
They can't recruit to general practice in UK and the average age female GPs retire permanently is 38. The over 50s are leaving in their droves before the pension is raided further. Leaving the rest of us to carry more and more
And as a self employed partner I only get leave if I can get locum cover and that is getting harder and harder
If canada doesn't work for me work wise the best thing will be that I will have escaped UK general practice and they won't let me in again without working for a year for nothing and sitting exams.
Just my opinion from this side of the pond. It's got immeasurably worse even in the last 2 years and the direction of travel is clear which ever government gets in this May

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

I'm not saying that life for GP's isn't stressful in the UK, it is and my husband is much less stressed but for patients and patient care and we only left 15 months ago and he is still very much in touch with his still partnership, he does genuinely believe that the NHS is much better.

Btw you won't get locum cover here either, it will just be loss of earnings. You will still need to work a considerable amount to put into your pot for your pension, nobody else is contributing to it. As a side note, I also think cost of living is way more here.

We''re still considering a move back, mainly because we miss friends and family so much and also because of the way system works here he feels he would almost be glad to go back to a system which serves it's patients better.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

I'm certainly getting QOF contract/LES overload. We are getting less and less time to actually spend with sick patients as more and more of it is taken up sorting out how to achieve these mostly meaningless points. And at the same time this is going on, patient demand keeps on increasing. I think the idea of the NHS is good in principle but not this GP contract that changes every year to encompass more each time for less money. It's a no brainer for me

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

In response to some of the previous posts. It does seem like an inordinate amount of bureaucracy to get licensure, permanent residency including english tests etc but I don't see why this would put anyone off if they were serious about moving over? Surely the main reasons for not moving would be being far away from friends and family. I hate bureaucracy and think it's way too much bureaucracy but I obviously still want to move :-)

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

The bureaucracy hasn't put me off. Any gp used to the nhs lives a life overwhelmed by bureaucracy every day. I think the important bit is not to expect it happen quickly. That's hard though. Knowing you've decided to go but having to hang on for up to 18-24 months
The NHS in principle is a great thing but not the current way it's being executed. I know most of all the current NHS is destroying many of its staff and I'm not going to stay where I'm being destroyed for the sake of patient care. Cemeteries are full of many apparently indispensable people. My main responsibility is to my family.
I will be leaving NHS general practice whatever. Am I leaving medicine? I guess it depends how it goes in Canada.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

This thread is very specialised and must be boring as hell to non GPs but I am sure that there are more and more GPs who are completely demoralised and at risk of burn out who are looking for alternatives and Canada and Australia will be considered as options. It is useful to get an assortment of opinions. In part it depends on your original position in the UK, whether both spouses/partners can get employment here, where you move, and of course what ultimately you want from life. We moved just under six years ago from a practice in North Norfolk, (high earning/ dispensing) I was a partner, other half a part time salaried doc -she was working hard and getting paid peanuts. Even then our profits/earnings where dropping fast. I was doing a lot of OOH work and getting knackered and pay for that was also plummeting.
Here in BC, there are of course big frustrations, IT is very behind but is catching up to some degree- it has in part been more orientated towards billing but that is changing. Ontario may be getting cuts but they are actually starting from a higher staring point . Finances are finite as they are in the UK but I don't believe that the squeeze on pay is similar here. We are a fortunate position that we both work as GPs, we work hard, we ensure that we get adequate holidays to enjoy life. You have to get over the loss of income when not working mentality - you typically earn more in the time that you work and therefore enjoy your time off. NHS pensions in the UK were excellent, now not so much. You just have to plan things here. Nothing is ever ideal.
Do I regret moving here- absolutely not, we have a good balance in work and funtime, the kids love it. We miss the folks back home but visit once a year and they come here. We have just returned from a trip and still love M&S food, Quavers, proper Dairy Milk etc but came home happy but tired!!
Would I recommend it to others considering the move? Absolutely! Speaking to colleagues still there, they are indeed considering their options, emigrating, leaving the profession or just counting the days/ years until they retire. This is really sad. You do indeed have only one life, it is a huge thing to do - there is huge bureaucracy and multiple hurdles to jump but as it stands now, we would do it again in an instant. I hope that helps those considering it.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Hi, I'm not sure why you've created another username, but please note that multiple usernames are not permitted as per site rules.

Please post only using your original username, thx.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Couple of things- well may be more
Ontario physicians have historically been paid higher than elsewhere- BC is towards to bottom- BUT I still feel well paid for the work I do here.
You can't look at income on a per "cutoff" basis- if you did you would never take anytime off!! We have learnt to look at our annual income and decide what holidays we feel we can take- just like any other self employed business person- and I do feel more business-like here- in the NHS GPs are molly coddled to some extent but then complain about interference- you can't have it both ways. I prefer my autonomy. I'll grant locums are difficult.
The NHS- it's not all roses at all. Depending on where you live ,hospital access can be very poor. Both our sets of parents live in very urban areas, but their local hospitals are miles away now and in traffic could be difficult to reach. In North Norfolk, our nearest hospital took an hour to reach at times despite fast rural roads.
Some of the care our parents are getting is dubious at best.My mum was listed for a knee replacement - she changed her mind about which knee the day before the op, and the surgeon did not query it at all, things went wrong during the op, she still has issues now and bizarrely he happily listed her for the other side without talking to her. In fact I doubt she needed either one doing yet, and she has canceled knee number 2 for now after we talked to her. None of my excellent local orthopods would have gone along with this and rightly so. Her recent experience at a pain clinic was unpleasant and useless , but unlike here, it's hard to make sure you see a particular specialist physician consistently or by choice.
I would rate most of my local specialists here as excellent and would be happy to be treated by them, I don't know that I could have said that previously.
As for tests, BC, I'm pleased to say, has some strict rules so I can often refuse the more bizarre requests on the grounds that MSP won't pay, but patients can if they choose to.
Pensions- GP NHS pensions are rapidly being eroded- I really don't think I would /could work to 67 - despite moving later in life- we will not need to work anywhere near that age to be able to retire comfortably here. We do have to manage investments though and make our money work for us- just like other people.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

I think it is worth pointing out that snoopdawg and I come from different perspectives/provinces which must inevitably skew opinion.

I only mention the pay cut not because it really is significant more because you still are a government employee at their mercy of their politics and decision making... That doesn't change from country to country...

Also we have moved with my husband the GP as the one and only earner in the house... I am struggling to get registered as a nurse here... And so it probably does effect how well off I think we are here and my concerns over annual leave/less pay. In effect my husband has to cover both over and above both wages and pensions for us to feel better off. It's very difficult to tell given you can't really see how much pension is paid each month with government contributions. Also the BC dogs (excuse the expression😉) are both FP in the same household... You would have been better off than us in the UK too😉!

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

I absolutely get your position TT, often there are RN spouses with GPs, obviously the circles that we mixed during our 'frisky' days! It must be incredibly frustrating for RNs trying to get registered here despite their experience gained in the UK. Unfortunately in the unionised nursing Canada world, it isn't how good you are that gets the job, it is how long you have worked. Merit and ability are rarely considered. As I said, we, the "BC Dogs" -(that amuses me btw) are obviously in the fortunate position of both working as GPs. In the UK, Snoopdawg was our slave! Part time salaried getting paid genuinely very little for her labours. I don't know what your hours were but you may not have been correct in your presumption.... ;)

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Nah I was only 10 hrs and extra hrs as I wanted...

I think my point wasn't to get into an argument about whether doctors are better in Canada- I think they are but it annoys me people diss the NHS as a whole without having any real idea about other countries e.g Dr Ozarnaki or whatever his name is assertions... I think you're right btw... he is trolling the thread...

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

:goodpost:
I think that you have hit the nail on the head- I feel that you would thrive in BC- weird stat re female GPs retiring at 38 though. We are glad that we got out when we did and I would 100% agree with the privatisation comment, that has been on the cards for a long time. Too many high up people involved in decision making with way too many conflicts of interest.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

for those who think i am trolling or what ever that is. I have no intention of upsetting people but i have the right to express views and that after reading on this very forums on this website from people who have experienced over 10years & are still struggling to cope with the move. I am not expecting that this will change my decision not to check canada out.
sorry i am putting the link which i assume most of u have already seen.

http://britishexpats.com/forum/canni...n-ever-855791/

http://britishexpats.com/forum/canni...r-year-818032/

http://britishexpats.com/forum/canni...ack-uk-847870/

http://britishexpats.com/forum/rover...ack-uk-854420/

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Trip trap trip trap

Not much of a doctor if you think one person's experience automatically would be the same as another's

The plural of anecdote is not data

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Jeepers you're not upsetting people- healthy debate that's all :thumbsup:..I've been chatting with the pups for a while now so don't kid yourself that your stirring things up:sneaky:

But to introduce antagonistic comments and then not return to the thread to back them up...what would you call that?

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Hey guys, new to this site and threads (first post :unsure:). Currently working as a GP in London and whilst I absolutely love the NHS and what it stands for, it is currently being exploited heavily for the wrong reasons by both patients and politicians and unfortunately GP's are suffering, as are ill patients who genuinely need the service.
I would like to consider moving to Canada...thinking Alberta, Calgary. Does anyone have any experience there. From what I can work out, its a fee-per service, income may be similar but quality of life is much better, nicer patients etc...But would really like to hear someones views

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Hello savvy,

Welcome, I expect you'll get replies from the other drs here soon. It's a long process and the bureaucracy is all experienced differently by all the doctors who've made the move, as you'll find by reading posts on this forum.
There are many posts on here you can search through. Also as you have specifically mentioned Alberta, a UK GP who moved to Alberta has a forum he runs giving the kind of info it seems you're looking for- the process and experience of moving to work in Canada as a GP etc.
In addition to the posts on here, you may want to google 'GP in Canada' and you'll find the forum- I think he gets you to join/subscribe or so.
I hope it's ok to signpost you to the site on here...

For us it's been a good move so far, but I think patients are the same everywhere though- my psychiatric patients and my husbands family practice patients seem grateful to have a dr, but once you have a good rapport with them . It's all the same 'demands' etc- which is fine! But I can relate do the view that the do seem 'nicer' in some way.
Good luck

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

If you're looking at Alberta I foind Alberta health services website very informative

Alberta dont need mrcgp but do need the mccee exam. Physician apply is the portal for the medical council of Canada for all matters exam and registration. It's not cheap but there are a few people who have done it here or via doctorsnet or the gpincanada website. And they all seem happy

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Hey Segs,
Thanks for your reply...Will check out "GP in Canada"

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

I would just say that the GP who writes this blog/ oversees the forum loves getting his hands dirty in ER ... He is clearly experienced but ER duties are most certainly if you are looking at non Rural posts not required and neither are obstetric duties... I think that his forum is ok but has a definite ER slant which I am sure would dissuade a lot of Drs from making the move and it shouldn't - you can be a normal GP doing similar duties to the UK but in more pleasant surroundings and usually less stress! And get suitably rewarded. It is worth the effort.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

How bad are the IT systems out there? Are there practices that are still paper based fully? Having only ever worked in the high tech NHS GP electronic land, I'm not sure how I'd cope hand writing notes...

Plus - oh boy... life without M&S... fingers crossed I'll have more time out there to cook!

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Hi tweet6
can u clarify the exam situation in this process is it like bc where u get mccee excemption due to mrcgp but need to sit mccqe1 and 2 once u start working in Toronto with in 3 yrs.?
What english language requirement apply i mean ielts needed after mrcgp and cct for registration ?
From ur post i understand there are no rotation restriction need like bc?
thanks for ur reply.
It would help if other colleauge from ontario who would like to comment on this.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

I'm new to the forum and have read this thread with great interest. I'm a UK GP and I've just had the go ahead to start looking for jobs in Canada.

I've got my eye on the southern interior of BC and will be aiming to come out in a month or so and look at some practices. I'd be keen to get any advice on the area, things to look out for when looking at practices (particularly those that are unique to Canada), any potential pitfalls and also generally how to structure such a trip.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Welcome! Any ideas about any towns that might appeal? Southern Interior is quite a large area with large variation in climate, things to do etc I am sure that we can help/guide you!

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Probably the Okanagan, I'm also going to have a look at some jobs in Nelson and Castlegar. I also will be having a look at Westerna Alberta around Calgary but we are pretty set on the Okanagan.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Nelson was our second choice- we are in the Okanagan, as you can see by my profile! Castlegar not so much!! Great place to live- quite a bit on the various threads about the area- presumably you have contacted Healthmatch BC.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

When looking for jobs, just remember you are in demand. There will be some genuine offers and some just looking to lower their own overheads.

You want to know what you can do in the office- min/max ( days/hours/money!), coverage, overheads- lower the better obviously.
Are the other docs planning on taking vast holidays leaving you to man the ship and pay their overheads? Watch the ones who seem great business people- again some will be genuine, some will want to use you.

Taking on an established practice has benefits- generally a "screened" population, you can take over the CDM billing immediately- no lag time building up a list- higher income from the start.
BUT the retiring/leaving doctor may work very differently from you, older GPs here can be quite lax with their opiate/benzo prescribing and you could have major disagreements!

Hospital privileges- you know Interior Health will insist on them as part of sponsorship for your provisional licence?
Once you have a full licence then you can stop, or go elsewhere- Vancouver and beyond- some parts of VI

You're not coming to the Okanagan at a good time- which is maybe wise- you see it when we are transitioning to winter- it's bare, can be cloudy, not very pretty. If you still like it, then you'll love it the rest of the year.
Where in the Okanagan will depend on what you are after- a larger city-more going on, Big White ( but 1 hour from town)- Kelowna, smaller, more elderly, drier- Penticton, more greenery, decent sized city, easy access to Kelowna airport,great skiing close to town ( 20 mins)- Vernon, Kamloops to the north is also worth looking at.
Lots of smaller towns- with cheaper/larger plots/acreage- if thats what you want.

We were told this weekend by recruiters from the Kamloops area that the previously steady stream of GPs from South Africa has disappeared, putting YOU in a great position.
Almost every single town/city will need GPs- IF you didn't need a supervisor, you could set up shop and do very well anywhere, unfortunately you do - that limits you.
Have a long read of the thread- lots in there and do searches on each area.

FYI Nelson is great, but you'll struggle not to do the hospital I think- ever!!!
It's also quite isolated- I was talking to some people who grew up there recently- they said they love it but left as they wanted to be somewhere more accessible although whether that's true in the winter, it's dubious. The Okanagan has mountain ranges to all sides- guaranteeing a trip anywhere on a definite day outside of July/August is impossible :p I am actually serious- I've seen snow on the Coquihalla in June and early September

Structure of trip- send out your CV- delete 90% of offers that come back from places that are just crazy- drive between the rest- you could happily fill 2-4 weeks with breaks/ holiday in-between. BUT as I stated above- watch the weather- get a car with winter tires- you may need to delay trips for a few hours/day- not the easiest time of year for a road trip in mountains. Once you're in the Okanagan itself you should be fine before Christmas- but we have had snow/very cold ( -20c) weather in late November in previous years.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Thanks for all the information in your last and all previous posts, Snoopdawg, its looking like Okanagan or Nelson for me.

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Hi all,

Thank you for all the information in this thread. I have a query if somebody can kindly answer that.

I qualified as a GP in 2010. My wife is a GP as well and qualified in 2008. We both want to move to Canada and are looking for BC or Alberta. However for BC we both don't have General surgery rotation in our postings. I worked as an Orthopaedic SHO for 4months in 2005. and My wife did Clinical attachment in Paeds Surgery & Orthopaedics in 2003. Can these be counted against General Surgery rotation?

If not then we'll probably move to Alberta. My next question is once we get full licence in Alberta - can we then move anywhere in Canada like BC or do these requirements about postings still apply?

Thanks in advance

re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
 

Q 1:The best person to answer this would be your Healthmatch BC contact or directly pose the question to the College of Physicians and Surgeons BC registration dept...

Q 2 :Canada does not yet have a licence to practice medicine that transfers from province to province, so you will at the stage you want to move, apply to the college in that province and then see if you meet the requirements. You may be better off trying to meet the criteria for your preferred province from the get go to avoid moving again

Hope that helps