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re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
I think some of you are turning this into a political debate, in which, it could be debated weather or not this is a 'just' or a 'fair' change.
However, it is a matter of fact, rather than opinion, that the new change will have a financially detrimental effect on doctors in Canada. |
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Originally Posted by Snowroll
(Post 12334290)
I think some of you are turning this into a political debate, in which, it could be debated weather or not this is a 'just' or a 'fair' change.
However, it is a matter of fact, rather than opinion, that the new change will have a financially detrimental effect on doctors in Canada. |
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
I do think it will have a detrimental effect on patient care for some though.
|
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Originally Posted by Tirytory
(Post 12334296)
Well not just doctors, there are many many small business who earn a heck of a lot less than doctors do.
I do think it will have a detrimental effect on patient care for some though. I think, as dbd33 mentioned, it all depends on whether or not top tax advisers will actually find a way to make this reform hurt less. |
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Originally Posted by Tirytory
(Post 12334299)
I do think it will have a detrimental effect on patient care for some though.
|
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Originally Posted by Snowroll
(Post 12334290)
I think some of you are turning this into a political debate, in which, it could be debated weather or not this is a 'just' or a 'fair' change.
However, it is a matter of fact, rather than opinion, that the new change will have a financially detrimental effect on doctors in Canada. In light of the above, it will have a financially detrimental effect upon doctors as they will have to pay more tax. For drs, in a nutshell, that is it. They don't have to keep earnings in their PCs to fund large expenditures in the same way that a small manufacturing business does and, in that respect, they are in the same position as lawyers. IMO, neither "need" a PC for anything other than paying the tax they ought to pay. I am happy to agree that Trudeau is a wanker for most things, but on this issue, I am with him. Put it another way - why do Drs need PCs? |
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 12334408)
Why?
My understanding of the PC is that it was an agreement between drs and the government because of the cuts the government were going to make to the fee for service pay structure, so they let drs incorporate to save for their pension. |
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Originally Posted by Tirytory
(Post 12334421)
Fee for service is an imperfect system as it is. It incentivizes fast care over proper care, because the government cuts costs of various consultations, so often seeing patients with complex problems doesn't pay well. They will now compound this by taking the PC away which will mean doctors will need to work harder and faster to save for their retirement. Meaning those with complex needs, chronic illness, elderly, mental health will continue to struggle to find good medical care.
My understanding of the PC is that it was an agreement between drs and the government because of the cuts the government were going to make to the fee for service pay structure, so they let drs incorporate to save for their pension. I don't know about how it works in Ontario, but my accountant, that acts for lots of doctors here, tells me that, almost without exception, they all work to achieve an income of $300,000 a year. When the government puts their fees up, they need to work less to achieve the same income. Seems like a nonsense system to me and I can see why there is a doctor shortage throughout Canada. |
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 12334460)
OK. How are teachers, nurses, those that are not able to use a PC supposed to save for their retirement, pension?
I don't know about how it works in Ontario, but my accountant, that acts for lots of doctors here, tells me that, almost without exception, they all work to achieve an income of $300,000 a year. When the government puts their fees up, they need to work less to achieve the same income. Seems like a nonsense system to me and I can see why there is a doctor shortage throughout Canada. I don't follow you... when do the government put their fees up? Whose fees? Teachers and Nurses get a pension though don't they, doctors here are that peculiar breed of government employee who are contractually obliged to work for the government but get no benefits, no sick leave, no maternity benefit, no disability, no drug plan, no dental benefits and no pension. i'm not arguing that the sum of money isn't a handsome one, I'm just pointing out it's not take home pay either. It's pre-tax, and doesn't take into consideration the overheads for running a medical clinic. Ending the corporations will make Canadian doctors pay less than their UK counterparts, not to mention the US and Australia.. |
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
[QUOTE=Almost Canadian;12334460]OK. How are teachers, nurses, those that are not able to use a PC supposed to save for their retirement, pension? [QUOTE]
they don't need to incorporate as they get paid pension, health insurance etc by their employers but drs don't have that luxury i.e. have to fund all that theymselves..... I don't know about how it works in Ontario, but my accountant, that acts for lots of doctors here, tells me that, almost without exception, they all work to achieve an income of $300,000 a year. When the government puts their fees up, they need to work less to achieve the same income. Seems like a nonsense system to me and I can see why there is a doctor shortage throughout Canada. No! dr can't charge extra as the fee is fixed by govern and has been unilaterally reducing it for drs in Ontario..... |
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 12334062)
I agree with JonBoyE.
Are you able to explain, in generic terms, how you will be affected in ways other than those that are "unfair" as are clearly explained in the above post by our resident accountant. I do not have a PC precisely because I realise it is unfair. I have long ago learned to avoid posting on the immigration forum as I leave this up to those that know what they're talking about-I certainly don't know enough to usefully contribute unless it's perhaps on medical issues -Applicants with certain medical conditions or medical personnel asking for advice with regard to moving to Canada. As a consequence, I have until post #606 resisted posting on this current contentious issue with regard to tax and also completely avoid discussing earnings in any profession not just my own as I do not feel that this is appropriate on an open forum with people from all walks of life contributing to the forum, I find it somewhat chavvy and indiscreet-just my opinion. When I responded to brainwave, there had been a lack of anyone posting a response and therefore I felt it was only polite to briefly give them an idea of how things might turn out-they are clearly at that point in their career where they either jump into the pool or exit by the main door back to the UK-they were asking for an informed opinion from fellow physicians on a thread which is almost exclusively used as an information supply for GPs. This is an open forum and it was entirely reasonable to hear from JonboyE given that he is an accountant, has knowledge and he has his own informed opinion. He does use somewhat strange words including a repetition of the word mischief although I suppose this is somewhat less offensive than Trudeau and his colleagues inferring some kind of criminal activity which has been approved by successive governments... I replied civilly, interestingly being an accountant, he has not indicated whether he is himself incorporated, self-employed or working as an employee within a larger accounting firm. I believe that my posting of the article in the Globe and Mail summed up my thoughts very well. It is as a result of the combination of my policy of not discussing political issues on British Expats as well as, having read some of your posts on this thread passing comments which clearly indicate that you (AC) know next to nothing about how physicians run their businesses-(yes they do exist) that I will decline from continuing to engage with you in this matter further. Somewhat worryingly you also seem to have a concerning lack of comprehension about incorporation itself, who can and cannot incorporate and also the running of other small businesses. If a cleaner wished to incorporate, there is nothing to stop them doing so and indeed, self-employed small cleaning businesses are numerous (no doubt a good proportion of them will indeed be incorporated) I am sure in most towns and cities within the country and so your comparison simply does not make sense. Thank god my own lawyer knows what she is talking about.. Further you have a distinct hole in your knowledge base as to how teachers, nurses and other public sector workers are paid and particularly how their pensions are funded....that's a bit worrying Despite Trudeau's claims, this is going to have a massive effect on other small businesses, not just doctors, lawyers dentists and accountants… Trudeau is supposed to be supporting the middle classes and certainly does not seem to be encouraging entrepreneurial spirit and development of small business enterprise with his proposed actions. The relatively small amount of money that they recover from this,will create massive bad will amongst thousands and thousands of small-business owners within the country with inevitable lay-offs of staff as work forces will have to shrink. I believe that he would probably do better recouping tax from multinational companies who run their businesses offshore to mitigate their tax bill by massive amounts compared to his current plans targeting small businesses. It is very easy for lawyers, accountants and dentists to increase their rates to compensate for any losses, as others have pointed out although I don't think you genuinely comprehend the system adequately, we cannot do this ourselves. You ask why there will be a detrimental effect on patient care. If I wished to engage a lawyer in town, I would have no problems, there are so many of them-likewise accountants. It is impossible to predict the effect of these policy changes with regard to physician recruitment but I communicate frequently with potential physicians, looking to move typically from the UK and as has been indicated in this thread, these prospective Canadian-to-be doctors will simply move elsewhere, typically to Australia or New Zealand. Why come to Canada? There will be large-scale early retirements because it will not make financial sense to continue working any longer than you absolutely need to and younger Canadian doctors will indeed head south, they do this enough already and there will be a lot more heading that way. So in essence, whilst anyone will be able to get a lawyer or indeed in accountant or dentist this will not be the case with regard to family physicians or indeed specialist and therefore patients health/care without any shadow of a doubt will be impacted as patients will not be able to easily access medical care, they will need to travel a lot further distances and will have a lot longer waiting for both consultations with specialists as well as waiting for surgeries etc. It is already bad enough now. Just you wait. As I said, I avoid threads which concern matters with which I have little knowledge-I would probably strongly recommend AC that you do similarly as inevitably one ends up looking somewhat foolish when trying to put up an argument with people who clearly do know what they are talking about. |
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Thank you StinkyPup,
You are quite right about our situation, I will not comment on this topic again , we are going to wait and watch and then re-evaluate our situation after December 2017. will surely keep you all posted. we wouldn't have reached here without this forum's advice. Thanks to all for your help so far |
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Just realised my embarrassing spelling mistake... I guess I will have to live with the shame for the rest of my life :o If only I could edit it...
Anyway, back on topic, as a family that is just about to begin the immigration process to Canada, this reform might cause us to recalculate our destination. Will definitely follow this thread for updates from Canadian based GPs. |
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Originally Posted by Tirytory
(Post 12334466)
I don't follow you... when do the government put their fees up? Whose fees?
Teachers and Nurses get a pension though don't they, doctors here are that peculiar breed of government employee who are contractually obliged to work for the government but get no benefits, no sick leave, no maternity benefit, no disability, no drug plan, no dental benefits and no pension. i'm not arguing that the sum of money isn't a handsome one, I'm just pointing out it's not take home pay either. It's pre-tax, and doesn't take into consideration the overheads for running a medical clinic. Ending the corporations will make Canadian doctors pay less than their UK counterparts, not to mention the US and Australia.. |
re: Chat for and with Canadian Family Practitioners/ex UK General Practitioners
Originally Posted by Stinkypup
(Post 12334543)
On British Expats, I generally avoid posting on certain particular types of threads or forums. For example, I avoid political and somewhat heated debate type threads as typically the same outcomes result, same participants, I just leave them to fight it out. I also stick to those that I have a reasonable knowledge about-obviously medical issues, advising potential migrating physicians about the pros and cons of moving to Canada, the more humorous/lighthearted threads as well as posting the odd photo or two.
I have long ago learned to avoid posting on the immigration forum as I leave this up to those that know what they're talking about-I certainly don't know enough to usefully contribute unless it's perhaps on medical issues -Applicants with certain medical conditions or medical personnel asking for advice with regard to moving to Canada. As a consequence, I have until post #606 resisted posting on this current contentious issue with regard to tax and also completely avoid discussing earnings in any profession not just my own as I do not feel that this is appropriate on an open forum with people from all walks of life contributing to the forum, I find it somewhat chavvy and indiscreet-just my opinion. When I responded to brainwave, there had been a lack of anyone posting a response and therefore I felt it was only polite to briefly give them an idea of how things might turn out-they are clearly at that point in their career where they either jump into the pool or exit by the main door back to the UK-they were asking for an informed opinion from fellow physicians on a thread which is almost exclusively used as an information supply for GPs. This is an open forum and it was entirely reasonable to hear from JonboyE given that he is an accountant, has knowledge and he has his own informed opinion. He does use somewhat strange words including a repetition of the word mischief although I suppose this is somewhat less offensive than Trudeau and his colleagues inferring some kind of criminal activity which has been approved by successive governments... I replied civilly, interestingly being an accountant, he has not indicated whether he is himself incorporated, self-employed or working as an employee within a larger accounting firm. I believe that my posting of the article in the Globe and Mail summed up my thoughts very well. It is as a result of the combination of my policy of not discussing political issues on British Expats as well as, having read some of your posts on this thread passing comments which clearly indicate that you (AC) know next to nothing about how physicians run their businesses-(yes they do exist) that I will decline from continuing to engage with you in this matter further. Somewhat worryingly you also seem to have a concerning lack of comprehension about incorporation itself, who can and cannot incorporate and also the running of other small businesses. If a cleaner wished to incorporate, there is nothing to stop them doing so and indeed, self-employed small cleaning businesses are numerous (no doubt a good proportion of them will indeed be incorporated) I am sure in most towns and cities within the country and so your comparison simply does not make sense. Thank god my own lawyer knows what she is talking about.. Further you have a distinct hole in your knowledge base as to how teachers, nurses and other public sector workers are paid and particularly how their pensions are funded....that's a bit worrying Despite Trudeau's claims, this is going to have a massive effect on other small businesses, not just doctors, lawyers dentists and accountants… Trudeau is supposed to be supporting the middle classes and certainly does not seem to be encouraging entrepreneurial spirit and development of small business enterprise with his proposed actions. The relatively small amount of money that they recover from this,will create massive bad will amongst thousands and thousands of small-business owners within the country with inevitable lay-offs of staff as work forces will have to shrink. I believe that he would probably do better recouping tax from multinational companies who run their businesses offshore to mitigate their tax bill by massive amounts compared to his current plans targeting small businesses. It is very easy for lawyers, accountants and dentists to increase their rates to compensate for any losses, as others have pointed out although I don't think you genuinely comprehend the system adequately, we cannot do this ourselves. You ask why there will be a detrimental effect on patient care. If I wished to engage a lawyer in town, I would have no problems, there are so many of them-likewise accountants. It is impossible to predict the effect of these policy changes with regard to physician recruitment but I communicate frequently with potential physicians, looking to move typically from the UK and as has been indicated in this thread, these prospective Canadian-to-be doctors will simply move elsewhere, typically to Australia or New Zealand. Why come to Canada? There will be large-scale early retirements because it will not make financial sense to continue working any longer than you absolutely need to and younger Canadian doctors will indeed head south, they do this enough already and there will be a lot more heading that way. So in essence, whilst anyone will be able to get a lawyer or indeed in accountant or dentist this will not be the case with regard to family physicians or indeed specialist and therefore patients health/care without any shadow of a doubt will be impacted as patients will not be able to easily access medical care, they will need to travel a lot further distances and will have a lot longer waiting for both consultations with specialists as well as waiting for surgeries etc. It is already bad enough now. Just you wait. As I said, I avoid threads which concern matters with which I have little knowledge-I would probably strongly recommend AC that you do similarly as inevitably one ends up looking somewhat foolish when trying to put up an argument with people who clearly do know what they are talking about. Nothing that you said above responds in any way to the general thrust of what I have been saying, namely, that someone that earns money in their business (doctor, lawyer, accountant, cleaner) that elects to leave the money in the business rather than taking it out as income, is paying far less tax upon that by doing so. Some people need to do so in order to fund expenditures in the future. All self employed people need to make provisions for their own retirement, for the times they are unable to work and for any health benefits they require. The last page or so is simply about the tax consequences of those using companies. If your PC pays "income" to members of your family or uses any of the tricks referred to above, it appears that you will not be able to do so in the future under the new proposals and, as a result, you will have to pay more tax. I doubt that many people would argue about that that is a bad thing. There aren't many people that enjoy paying tax. Any income currently held in a company will be treated as it was previously. Sure, people won't be able to use the loopholes described above but any retained earnings will be capable of being used for retirement. Just as doctors have to receive their income from the government (actually, you and I both know that they don't but that they can't be paid by both the public and the private sectors) patients have no alternative but to use them, unless they wish to travel outside of the jurisdiction. In light of the lack of doctors, I would argue that this means there is a lack of competition and most in Canada have little choice in who their doctor is. This is not the case for virtually all the occupations you refer to above. If lawyers, plumbers, accountants do a shitty job, their customers will not use them again. My doctor only works 3 mornings a week. I have been using the same medication for the 11 years I have been in Canada yet she insists that I meet with her to refill my prescription each and every time. That requires me to lose a morning of work each time. She does this notwithstanding the fact that the doses of my medication have never changed and my blood work is always impeccable. My meetings with her take 2 minutes (face to face with her). Of course, she gets her assistant to take my blood pressure using the machine, to take my weight and my height. The pharmacy that I have always used is permitted to refill my prescriptions but only if my doctor permits them to do so. She won't. I am confident that she will have lots of excuses as to why she can't. My doctor in England didn't see me for the last 10 years I lived in England. He had a tear off portion of each prescription refill that enabled me to check off a box and deposit it into a refill box in his surgery. Either my Canadian doctor is full of shite, or my English one was negligent. I really didn't wish to turn this into a rant against doctors and I apologise that I have done so. I simply don't see the issues with Trudeau's proposals that you do. Unfortunately for those that use them, it means that those that run their businesses through a company, and use the loopholes referred to above, will be paying more tax. If they withdraw the full extent of their income each year, don't income sprinkle, etc., their life will be minimally impacted. If they do this, they can save for their retirement using RRSPs and TFSAs. I believe that they are perfectly adequate. I also accept that people will use the tax laws for their own benefit and I am fine with that. A number of loopholes are about to close and no one has been able to give me a credible reason as to why doing so is not sensible. If doctors choose to stop working here, or retire early, simply because they will have to pay more tax, that is a matter for them. I'd respectfully suggest that there will be minimal, if any, loss of genuine employees as a result of these proposals. I'd also suggest that the relatively recent explosion in the number of small companies has to do with their owners wanting to pay less tax. If the benefit of your PC to you is as minimal as you suggest, what is the issue? |
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