Tirytory

I knew I spelt it wrong!!! Maybe I need the English test 😉

Dr Orakzai

Hello folks
I was away & couldn't reply to the discussion generated by *********.com. I have to rely on what ever I read on forums & Youtube as i myself have never been to Canada. I am not an NHS recruiter & myself am interested in leaving uk even before i joined Gp training. There is no ideal place or nirvana or paradise on earth but the aim is always to have a better life style with ur family close by which is difficult in uk following recent immigration changes as i am an expat here as well . I myself encourage my batch mates (Graduated Gp) to move but they feel they are anchored by their family commitment or are just part of the system where they feel is Ok!!!

Gowest

Imho anyone working as a GP in UK who thinks the system is ok is seriously deluded. Whether canada is their answer or not.

Tirytory

I would beware of that attitude of thinking that the NHS is so bad. Having had a direct opportunity to compare healthcare systems, my husband certainly believes the NHS is way ahead in patient care. Of course that was also born out by the Commonwealth study of first world healthcare. UK number one and Canada just ahead of the U.S. at number ten!

He really gets frustrated by the 1980's I.T. the inefficiency of the structure here, the demands of the patients for unnecessary testing which wouldn't be allowed in the UK and just happens over here just because. The government has recently given Family Physicians an actually pay cut- sound familiar? Plus they have got rid of some of the benefits that we took advantage of that you won't be able to. Bear in mind also there is no pension and whilst I know it had taken a hit in the UK (we've only just left) you certainly need to be a younger immigrant GP moving here otherwise you'll probably find yourself working until the same age as the UK to build up cash in your incorporation. Also dependent on what pay structure you work for there is annual leave, my husband certainly hasn't had the annual leave off that he did in the UK and that includes no bank holiday pay etc. Well it is in effect like self employed pay in the UK but not annualised so you see it directly in your next pay packet... and you need to earn that money to build up your pension. Whilst I don't want to get into direct financial nitty gritty either, he has only earnt marginally more which just covers the loss of my job and certainly this year hasn't covered what should have gone into both our pensions.

Move for other reasons by all means but don't move because of the NHS..

Dr Orakzai

Move for other reasons by all means but don't move because of the NHS..[/QUOTE]

In response to this reply, thats why i need to be sure when i move. I have heard of few GP who have gone there & returned as they didnt like the system, life style, weather, being away from family, not having holidays & the cover or protection u get in the NHS!!.
From what u are saying that ur partner works 7 days & get paid for 7 days. In the nhs u work 5 days & get paid 5 days. off course the more u work the more u earn I guess!!
I am not blaming any system but since the introduction of revalidation the amount of Gp retiring early has increase over 9% yearly as per BMA & the intake to medical school has not increased as expected. so will this create more opportunity in uk or more brain drain only the future will tell. I would still like to try it still & if doesn't work I can always come back with some excuse

Gowest

I can also only comment on my own experiences. Vastly increased out of control work load. 40% more paperwork and 30% more patient contact than 5 years ago but in real terms a 15% pay cut. And the pension that takes 24% of my after tax earnings and won't pay out until I'm 68 at which time it will be taxed again. And there's no way I could survive this job until then which is of course the point.
I've looked at the figures and income in BC will be about equal. I'm not moving for money.
And patient care in nhs. Patient wants maybe if you're articulate and middle class but not the needs of the vulnerable or mentally ill or old. This past year survival rates of the elderly in UK fell for the first time ever.
And in 5 years if the nhs hasn't been privatised I will be astounded.
They can't recruit to general practice in UK and the average age female GPs retire permanently is 38. The over 50s are leaving in their droves before the pension is raided further. Leaving the rest of us to carry more and more
And as a self employed partner I only get leave if I can get locum cover and that is getting harder and harder
If canada doesn't work for me work wise the best thing will be that I will have escaped UK general practice and they won't let me in again without working for a year for nothing and sitting exams.
Just my opinion from this side of the pond. It's got immeasurably worse even in the last 2 years and the direction of travel is clear which ever government gets in this May

Tirytory

I'm not saying that life for GP's isn't stressful in the UK, it is and my husband is much less stressed but for patients and patient care and we only left 15 months ago and he is still very much in touch with his still partnership, he does genuinely believe that the NHS is much better.

Btw you won't get locum cover here either, it will just be loss of earnings. You will still need to work a considerable amount to put into your pot for your pension, nobody else is contributing to it. As a side note, I also think cost of living is way more here.

We''re still considering a move back, mainly because we miss friends and family so much and also because of the way system works here he feels he would almost be glad to go back to a system which serves it's patients better.

ceechile

I'm certainly getting QOF contract/LES overload. We are getting less and less time to actually spend with sick patients as more and more of it is taken up sorting out how to achieve these mostly meaningless points. And at the same time this is going on, patient demand keeps on increasing. I think the idea of the NHS is good in principle but not this GP contract that changes every year to encompass more each time for less money. It's a no brainer for me

ceechile

In response to some of the previous posts. It does seem like an inordinate amount of bureaucracy to get licensure, permanent residency including english tests etc but I don't see why this would put anyone off if they were serious about moving over? Surely the main reasons for not moving would be being far away from friends and family. I hate bureaucracy and think it's way too much bureaucracy but I obviously still want to move :-)

Gowest

The bureaucracy hasn't put me off. Any gp used to the nhs lives a life overwhelmed by bureaucracy every day. I think the important bit is not to expect it happen quickly. That's hard though. Knowing you've decided to go but having to hang on for up to 18-24 months
The NHS in principle is a great thing but not the current way it's being executed. I know most of all the current NHS is destroying many of its staff and I'm not going to stay where I'm being destroyed for the sake of patient care. Cemeteries are full of many apparently indispensable people. My main responsibility is to my family.
I will be leaving NHS general practice whatever. Am I leaving medicine? I guess it depends how it goes in Canada.

Stinkypup

This thread is very specialised and must be boring as hell to non GPs but I am sure that there are more and more GPs who are completely demoralised and at risk of burn out who are looking for alternatives and Canada and Australia will be considered as options. It is useful to get an assortment of opinions. In part it depends on your original position in the UK, whether both spouses/partners can get employment here, where you move, and of course what ultimately you want from life. We moved just under six years ago from a practice in North Norfolk, (high earning/ dispensing) I was a partner, other half a part time salaried doc -she was working hard and getting paid peanuts. Even then our profits/earnings where dropping fast. I was doing a lot of OOH work and getting knackered and pay for that was also plummeting.
Here in BC, there are of course big frustrations, IT is very behind but is catching up to some degree- it has in part been more orientated towards billing but that is changing. Ontario may be getting cuts but they are actually starting from a higher staring point . Finances are finite as they are in the UK but I don't believe that the squeeze on pay is similar here. We are a fortunate position that we both work as GPs, we work hard, we ensure that we get adequate holidays to enjoy life. You have to get over the loss of income when not working mentality - you typically earn more in the time that you work and therefore enjoy your time off. NHS pensions in the UK were excellent, now not so much. You just have to plan things here. Nothing is ever ideal.
Do I regret moving here- absolutely not, we have a good balance in work and funtime, the kids love it. We miss the folks back home but visit once a year and they come here. We have just returned from a trip and still love M&S food, Quavers, proper Dairy Milk etc but came home happy but tired!!
Would I recommend it to others considering the move? Absolutely! Speaking to colleagues still there, they are indeed considering their options, emigrating, leaving the profession or just counting the days/ years until they retire. This is really sad. You do indeed have only one life, it is a huge thing to do - there is huge bureaucracy and multiple hurdles to jump but as it stands now, we would do it again in an instant. I hope that helps those considering it.

christmasoompa

Hi, I'm not sure why you've created another username, but please note that multiple usernames are not permitted as per site rules.

Please post only using your original username, thx.

snoopdawg

Couple of things- well may be more
Ontario physicians have historically been paid higher than elsewhere- BC is towards to bottom- BUT I still feel well paid for the work I do here.
You can't look at income on a per "cutoff" basis- if you did you would never take anytime off!! We have learnt to look at our annual income and decide what holidays we feel we can take- just like any other self employed business person- and I do feel more business-like here- in the NHS GPs are molly coddled to some extent but then complain about interference- you can't have it both ways. I prefer my autonomy. I'll grant locums are difficult.
The NHS- it's not all roses at all. Depending on where you live ,hospital access can be very poor. Both our sets of parents live in very urban areas, but their local hospitals are miles away now and in traffic could be difficult to reach. In North Norfolk, our nearest hospital took an hour to reach at times despite fast rural roads.
Some of the care our parents are getting is dubious at best.My mum was listed for a knee replacement - she changed her mind about which knee the day before the op, and the surgeon did not query it at all, things went wrong during the op, she still has issues now and bizarrely he happily listed her for the other side without talking to her. In fact I doubt she needed either one doing yet, and she has canceled knee number 2 for now after we talked to her. None of my excellent local orthopods would have gone along with this and rightly so. Her recent experience at a pain clinic was unpleasant and useless , but unlike here, it's hard to make sure you see a particular specialist physician consistently or by choice.
I would rate most of my local specialists here as excellent and would be happy to be treated by them, I don't know that I could have said that previously.
As for tests, BC, I'm pleased to say, has some strict rules so I can often refuse the more bizarre requests on the grounds that MSP won't pay, but patients can if they choose to.
Pensions- GP NHS pensions are rapidly being eroded- I really don't think I would /could work to 67 - despite moving later in life- we will not need to work anywhere near that age to be able to retire comfortably here. We do have to manage investments though and make our money work for us- just like other people.

Tirytory

I think it is worth pointing out that snoopdawg and I come from different perspectives/provinces which must inevitably skew opinion.

I only mention the pay cut not because it really is significant more because you still are a government employee at their mercy of their politics and decision making... That doesn't change from country to country...

Also we have moved with my husband the GP as the one and only earner in the house... I am struggling to get registered as a nurse here... And so it probably does effect how well off I think we are here and my concerns over annual leave/less pay. In effect my husband has to cover both over and above both wages and pensions for us to feel better off. It's very difficult to tell given you can't really see how much pension is paid each month with government contributions. Also the BC dogs (excuse the expression😉) are both FP in the same household... You would have been better off than us in the UK too😉!

Stinkypup

I absolutely get your position TT, often there are RN spouses with GPs, obviously the circles that we mixed during our 'frisky' days! It must be incredibly frustrating for RNs trying to get registered here despite their experience gained in the UK. Unfortunately in the unionised nursing Canada world, it isn't how good you are that gets the job, it is how long you have worked. Merit and ability are rarely considered. As I said, we, the "BC Dogs" -(that amuses me btw) are obviously in the fortunate position of both working as GPs. In the UK, Snoopdawg was our slave! Part time salaried getting paid genuinely very little for her labours. I don't know what your hours were but you may not have been correct in your presumption....