Originally Posted by __TJ__

Whilst I realise there are similar taxes in Canada, they are smaller, (I believe upper rate income tax in BC is 22%) and crucially we are choosing to live there so don't mind as much as if they were forced upon us.

Originally Posted by FedUpCanadian

This was hard to get across in my original post, but it's not so much the title of the government as it is their substance, and the general political trend lines. The Canadian Conservative party is nothing like Progressive Conservative party thaprecededed it -- it's much more akin to the American Republican party in terms of their goals. Again, this is a majority parliament run by an evanglical PM who believes that climate change is a left-wing conspiracy, taxes are evil, social security subsidizes laziness, and government should be a fraction of its current size. They put on a friendly face to avoid spooking people, but if one looks at what they do and say when they don't think anyone's listening, it's quite scary. The party has also been very effective aconvincingng immigrants that their social and economic values align with the Conservative party, which I regret to say is often true (I'm not necessarily anti-immigration, but I do worry about the cultural values many immigrants bring with them). The opposition parties are fairly ineffective, and I worry we're entering an era of far-right governments. Hell, if the Ontario conservatives hadn't made such a mess of their last election campaign, they likely would have won as well, and they're much more akin to the Conservatives than their Progressive Conservative heritage.

I don't think it's just sour grapes to consider leaving a country where you see politics taking a hard-right turn with no obvious end in sight.

Originally Posted by Lord Vader

It would be good for you to get out of Toronto and experience other parts of the world and Canada as well. It will be an education experience for you and will be an eye opener to get away from the liberal party dominated media in your city. I think it is less about you and more about Harper though, isn't it.

Originally Posted by FedUpCanadian

Please note: this post is going to come off much more negative than reality. Take all of this with a grain of salt – it's my opinion and my personality, not a scientific study. Don't let me dissuade you from moving here – you may love it, and many do. Canada is not a bad place to live!

Hey everyone,

I apologize for writing a post which I realize isn’t technically on-topic, but I’ve found a lot of good information about lifestyle differences between the UK and Canada on this forum; there are many here who are intimate with both countries; and I think this post and discusion could contain useful information for those looking to come to Canada.

I’m 21, have lived in the Toronto area for my entire life, and since 2007 have lived in old Toronto proper (currently in Roncesvalles, one of the best areas of Toronto in my opinion). I’ve experienced some of the best urban life Toronto has to offer – I’m not someone cooped up in suburbia.

Over the last few years, I’ve become increasingly pessimistic of the direction Canada is going (politically, and otherwise), and sick of its culture (or lack thereof).

Our federal government has an aggressive small-government, social conservative agenda, and has 3 ½ years of a majority government to shove it through. I get the sense this is less the case in the UK, but in Canada, a Prime Minister with a house and senate majority is effectively a dictator – party discipline is near-absolute. A few recent highlights: the government is angling to make major cuts to (if not defund) the CBC (think BBC), which is perhaps the only bastion of cultured Canadian media; stands among a small handful of states which support Israel’s illegal occupation unconditionally; has shut down parliament twice to prevent itself from losing a confidence vote; and is pushing through an insane American-style crime bill despite all experts and evidence pointing to crime rates dropping. Nobody seems to care, and if it weren’t for Quebec (the French region of Canada which is quite culturally distinct and markably more progressive), the Conservatives would own almost all of the country save a few rural ridings and cities.

Toronto, which one might think would be a bastion of progressive, cultured thinking, elected an absolute disgrace of a mayor last year by a huge margin. A quick example: the mayor couldn’t care less about our decrepit and underdeveloped transit system, and in fact derived a tonne of support by complaining that the city was waging a “war on cars” by charging a small vehicle registration tax and continuing to run streetcars (which the mayor wants to get rid of and would if he thought he could get council to vote in his favour). The man is noticeably stupid, and makes a fool of himself in public on a seemingly weekly basis, something anyone who googled "Rob Ford" before voting for him would have seen coming. One gets the sense that the mayor resents if not hates downtown Toronto, and a huge number of his suburban supporters do as well. Toronto loves to think of itself as a world-class city, but whenever it’s given the option of building that city or paying marginally lower taxes, it flocks to the latter. Our museums are second-rate at best, most of the city is ugly as sin, our transit system has been in underfunded limbo for decades, and we have practically nothing in the way of tourist attractions. I often see tour busses downtown and wonder what they’re looking at.

I’ve travelled to other cities (especially Montreal and Vancouver), and while they may be better than Toronto in some ways, I don’t think they’re substantially different in general feel and malaise.

Politics aren’t everything, but I think they do demonstrate how astonishingly ignorant and small-minded many Canadians seem to be, and though they may mean well and say please and thank you a lot, they’ll ultimate stand by and watch while our country is slowly turned into a less-flashy United States. There is practically no identifiable Canadian culture except a love of watching hockey players beat each other up, drinking terrible coffee and beer, and not being American in increasingly amorphous ways – this leaves a big vacuum that demagogues can fill and project their values into.

The “Canadian dream” seems to be living in a bland suburban community, driving an SUV or ordamental pick-up truck to work, shopping at big-box stores, and maybe getting a swimming pool. Even among many I consider to be smarter, their idea of being cultured seems to be drinking Starbucks coffee, going to pop concerts, and pretending to be smart by referencing philosophy books they were forced to read in first-year University. Canada's population is just half of the UK's, but we have practically nothing to show for it culturally. I struggle to find people I can discuss anything except trivialities, media, gossip, or work with.

I’m someone who doesn’t want to live in a country where cities are barely tolerated and endemically underfunded; not owning a car is essentially impossible outside of the downtown cores of a few major cities (and not particularly great even inside them); “culture” is something that uppity elites do; lowering taxes will almost always trump funding the common good; and bland suburbia is pervasive.

I know I come off this way, but I don’t think I’m better than everyone around me. This isn't some kind of Holden Caulfield situation. I have a few good friends and family that I would miss if I left, and there are many charming things about this city and country. What it comes down to is that I always get the sense that my values are fundamentally incompatible with most Canadians; the country has next to no social solidarity, cultural wealth, or goals; and is ripe to be demolished by a few Conservative governments with a good PR team. I don’t think I'm doing myself any favours by trying to stick it out here.

I qualify for the ancestry visa, and work in a field (web development) that I assume is relatively in-demand. I’m in no huge hurry to leave, but if I eventually do move to a relatively large English city (London, Birmingham, Liverpool, etc.) do you think I’d be happier across the pond? Or am I just projecting what I think Canada should be like onto England? I've been to London and the surrounding area before, but it's hard to suss out the values of a country from one two-week visit.

Thanks, and sorry again for the backwards topic!

Originally Posted by FedUpCanadian

I admit most of my travelling has been to major cities (Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, Halifax) -- I'm more of a city person, not really a nature person, and not a driver.

I would like to point out that I'm not someone who derives their political philosophy purely from reading Toronto Star columnists, and while I've voted Liberal, it's more a result of political pragmatism than a great love for the party (and my dissatisfaction with the NDP's tendency to sprint to the centre and make populist, unrealistic promises when they smell votes). I also do respect some Conservative policies, a good example being the HST, which wasn't a political winner, but made a lot of sense. I don't think Harper is evil, but I do think his vision of Canada is one I don't want to live in.

Originally Posted by __TJ__

The general feeling in the uk is of betrayal by our government. Cameron/clegg both abandoned their values to form a coalition and anyone who voted for either of them was stiffed, the labour party screwed us and plunged Britain into recession by letting banks get away with what they like and now they are predicting another recession in 2012, depending on "the Greek situation" you see while we are not in the euro (thank god!) we are in Europe. Great for trips to France (for cheap booze because we are taxed about three times on everything!) not so great when three of the member states (or countries as we used to call them) are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.

Jobs in uk are scarce, no matter what field you are in and altho car insurance is cheaper here your £ doesn't go very far when parking is horrendous, MOT (a government test to check if your car is roadworthy every year unless your car is less than 3 years old) and they always find something to cost £400 and retest fees...
Space. In the uk we are smaller than BC, but have twice as many people as the whole of Canada,( I think that's the right way round) so all space is cramped and expensive. The news occasionally has stories about single room 6'x8' in London selling for quarter million pounds etc but even here in suburbia my neighbour just got planning permission to build a 12' square garageblock with apex roof. Half built he went back for "change of use" and it's now going to be a bungalow. They can't build fast enough so green space is dwindling.
Culture, yes we have history in spades but who can afford to access it? A ticket for a London musical is £45 and that's cheap seats, then you have to get there, drive into London and you pay a congestion charge, it doesn't ease congestion tho so you still sit in traffic for hours, then £20 to park if you manage to find one of the back street parking places, then bus boat or tube to your destination. Basically if you are in the sticks you don't go to London that often.

Bearing in mind I want to move to BC so I may be biased against uk right now, I think you need to come visit and get the lay of the land because an awful lot of us are depressed about our lives being sucked out by a government who do what they like and don't care about the people. Our pensions are paltry and nhs while nurses work hard, is collapsing under the weight of paper pushers.

What will I miss about uk... My family, that's about it tbh.

Oh and a final word on tax, you work your butt off and make more than £36k a year, and mr government will releive you of 40% of anything you make over that. (anything under £10k is tax free, whoop! Between £10-£36k you pay i think 22% but i havent worked in about 10 years<raising my kids> ) Vat is 20% that's added to everything pretty much. If you manage to save any of your cash they tax you on the interest you receive, oh and if you have the bad manners to die having managed to accrue any wealth at all. Or pay off your mortgage, your children have to pay a hefty tax on their inheritance.
Whilst I realise there are similar taxes in Canada, they are smaller, (I believe upper rate income tax in BC is 22%) and crucially we are choosing to live there so don't mind as much as if they were forced upon us.

Originally Posted by FedUpCanadian

I admit most of my travelling has been to major cities (Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, Halifax) -- I'm more of a city person, not really a nature person, and not a driver.

I would like to point out that I'm not someone who derives their political philosophy purely from reading Toronto Star columnists, and while I've voted Liberal, it's more a result of political pragmatism than a great love for the party (and my dissatisfaction with the NDP's tendency to sprint to the centre and make populist, unrealistic promises when they smell votes). I also do respect some Conservative policies, a good example being the HST, which wasn't a political winner, but made a lot of sense. I don't think Harper is evil, but I do think his vision of Canada is one I don't want to live in.

Originally Posted by Oink

Rather than over concentrate on the political environment, aren't you probably just fed up with living in a place that's ugly and a bit boringly shit?

Originally Posted by JonboyE

I'd recommend he concentrates on London and gives Birmingham a miss.

Originally Posted by FedUpCanadian

I admit most of my travelling has been to major cities (Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, Halifax) -- I'm more of a city person, not really a nature person, and not a driver.

I would like to point out that I'm not someone who derives their political philosophy purely from reading Toronto Star columnists, and while I've voted Liberal, it's more a result of political pragmatism than a great love for the party (and my dissatisfaction with the NDP's tendency to sprint to the centre and make populist, unrealistic promises when they smell votes). I also do respect some Conservative policies, a good example being the HST, which wasn't a political winner, but made a lot of sense. I don't think Harper is evil, but I do think his vision of Canada is one I don't want to live in.

Originally Posted by Editha

Hi, I have been criticised on this forum for being too negative about Canada, but, although I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I actually think you are being a bit hard on your compatriots.

The overall standard of education is higher than in the UK, and in my experience the average Canadian is better read than in Britain. There is a strong literary tradition and very lively literary culture here, and I'd say that on the world stage Canada punches above its weight for artistic production.

Nevertheless, as a Brit, many Canadians seem parochial in their outlook to me, and often very ignorant of the world outside Canada and the USA, but I'm not sure that is so different to the British, who can be weirdly racist about their near neighbours in Europe. Once you've heard a British pub bore droning on about moslems, the EU, and immigration, you'll reassess the small mindedness of Canadians.

I often find the relentlessly positive attitude of Canadians irritating, particularly when it seems to bear little relationship to reality, but you will probably tire quite quickly of the British can't do attitude, and their resentment of other people's success.

My husband grew up in BC, but obtained joint nationality through a Scottish grandfather. He emigrated to England when he was 24 and stayed there 30 years. He came back to Canada five years ago, and is staying for another 3 before retiring back to the UK.

Best of luck to you with your plans.

Originally Posted by JonboyE

I'd recommend he concentrates on London and gives Birmingham a miss.

Originally Posted by Oink

Rather than over concentrate on the political environment, aren't you probably just fed up with living in a place that's ugly and a bit boringly shit?

Originally Posted by jimf

I think you're overdramatising the political background somewhat. Conservative parties in the UK and Canada got approx 40% of the vote. The way the seats fall that means a small majority in Canada and coalition with the liberals in the UK. I don't find that it affects my day to day life particularly who gets in - I'm not in the 1% and I'm not content to exist on welfare/disability allowance either. Next time a left of centre party forms a government in either place it won't mean the end of the world for right of centre voters either.

Originally Posted by FedUpCanadian

I know far less about the UK Conservative party, but my impression is that it's far less right-wing than ours. I'm not old enough to know this first hand, but I have a general respect for Canada's Progressive Conservative tradition.