FedUpCanadian

Please note: this post is going to come off much more negative than reality. Take all of this with a grain of salt – it's my opinion and my personality, not a scientific study. Don't let me dissuade you from moving here – you may love it, and many do. Canada is not a bad place to live!

Hey everyone,

I apologize for writing a post which I realize isn’t technically on-topic, but I’ve found a lot of good information about lifestyle differences between the UK and Canada on this forum; there are many here who are intimate with both countries; and I think this post and discusion could contain useful information for those looking to come to Canada.

I’m 21, have lived in the Toronto area for my entire life, and since 2007 have lived in old Toronto proper (currently in Roncesvalles, one of the best areas of Toronto in my opinion). I’ve experienced some of the best urban life Toronto has to offer – I’m not someone cooped up in suburbia.

Over the last few years, I’ve become increasingly pessimistic of the direction Canada is going (politically, and otherwise), and sick of its culture (or lack thereof).

Our federal government has an aggressive small-government, social conservative agenda, and has 3 ½ years of a majority government to shove it through. I get the sense this is less the case in the UK, but in Canada, a Prime Minister with a house and senate majority is effectively a dictator – party discipline is near-absolute. A few recent highlights: the government is angling to make major cuts to (if not defund) the CBC (think BBC), which is perhaps the only bastion of cultured Canadian media; stands among a small handful of states which support Israel’s illegal occupation unconditionally; has shut down parliament twice to prevent itself from losing a confidence vote; and is pushing through an insane American-style crime bill despite all experts and evidence pointing to crime rates dropping. Nobody seems to care, and if it weren’t for Quebec (the French region of Canada which is quite culturally distinct and markably more progressive), the Conservatives would own almost all of the country save a few rural ridings and cities.

Toronto, which one might think would be a bastion of progressive, cultured thinking, elected an absolute disgrace of a mayor last year by a huge margin. A quick example: the mayor couldn’t care less about our decrepit and underdeveloped transit system, and in fact derived a tonne of support by complaining that the city was waging a “war on cars” by charging a small vehicle registration tax and continuing to run streetcars (which the mayor wants to get rid of and would if he thought he could get council to vote in his favour). The man is noticeably stupid, and makes a fool of himself in public on a seemingly weekly basis, something anyone who googled "Rob Ford" before voting for him would have seen coming. One gets the sense that the mayor resents if not hates downtown Toronto, and a huge number of his suburban supporters do as well. Toronto loves to think of itself as a world-class city, but whenever it’s given the option of building that city or paying marginally lower taxes, it flocks to the latter. Our museums are second-rate at best, most of the city is ugly as sin, our transit system has been in underfunded limbo for decades, and we have practically nothing in the way of tourist attractions. I often see tour busses downtown and wonder what they’re looking at.

I’ve travelled to other cities (especially Montreal and Vancouver), and while they may be better than Toronto in some ways, I don’t think they’re substantially different in general feel and malaise.

Politics aren’t everything, but I think they do demonstrate how astonishingly ignorant and small-minded many Canadians seem to be, and though they may mean well and say please and thank you a lot, they’ll ultimate stand by and watch while our country is slowly turned into a less-flashy United States. There is practically no identifiable Canadian culture except a love of watching hockey players beat each other up, drinking terrible coffee and beer, and not being American in increasingly amorphous ways – this leaves a big vacuum that demagogues can fill and project their values into.

The “Canadian dream” seems to be living in a bland suburban community, driving an SUV or ordamental pick-up truck to work, shopping at big-box stores, and maybe getting a swimming pool. Even among many I consider to be smarter, their idea of being cultured seems to be drinking Starbucks coffee, going to pop concerts, and pretending to be smart by referencing philosophy books they were forced to read in first-year University. Canada's population is just half of the UK's, but we have practically nothing to show for it culturally. I struggle to find people I can discuss anything except trivialities, media, gossip, or work with.

I’m someone who doesn’t want to live in a country where cities are barely tolerated and endemically underfunded; not owning a car is essentially impossible outside of the downtown cores of a few major cities (and not particularly great even inside them); “culture” is something that uppity elites do; lowering taxes will almost always trump funding the common good; and bland suburbia is pervasive.

I know I come off this way, but I don’t think I’m better than everyone around me. This isn't some kind of Holden Caulfield situation. I have a few good friends and family that I would miss if I left, and there are many charming things about this city and country. What it comes down to is that I always get the sense that my values are fundamentally incompatible with most Canadians; the country has next to no social solidarity, cultural wealth, or goals; and is ripe to be demolished by a few Conservative governments with a good PR team. I don’t think I'm doing myself any favours by trying to stick it out here.

I qualify for the ancestry visa, and work in a field (web development) that I assume is relatively in-demand. I’m in no huge hurry to leave, but if I eventually do move to a relatively large English city (London, Birmingham, Liverpool, etc.) do you think I’d be happier across the pond? Or am I just projecting what I think Canada should be like onto England? I've been to London and the surrounding area before, but it's hard to suss out the values of a country from one two-week visit.

Thanks, and sorry again for the backwards topic!

izzi81

As someone who's on their way out of the UK, I wasn't sure I'd reply to this thread when I started to read it... but I'll give my view.

Firstly, have you read the 'Moving back to the UK' section of the forum? There is a lot of good info there about people heading for the UK. It's likely here you will hear a lot of negatives about the UK (makes sense, people are looking to leave) whereas on the MBTTUK section you'll hear a lot of positives about the UK (again, makes sense, people are looking to move back). So you have to be careful how you view the comments in both forums!

First off, have you only visited the UK once, for 2 weeks? If that's the case, I would seriously suggest a longer visit to get more of a feel for the place. There are many things about the UK which I don't like, but I'm not going to list them here, because people like different things, and while I don't seem to be a good fit with the UK, that doesn't mean others won't love it!

Politically, I'm sure you will find plenty in the UK to get grumpy about in time Things are not great here economically, and the general public tend to have quite a depressed view about things. This is one of the differences I find between the UK and Canada, but I accept I have not lived there like you have, and I'm also not looking to move to a big city, so our situations are different.

Last thing I'll say - in the current economic climate it is not safe to assume any job is in demand I'm afraid. I certainly wouldn't say I feel web development is in demand... there are a *lot* of web developers here. Mind you, it's not my field, so I don't really know! I assume it's very dependent on what specific skills and experience you have. A lot of companies here are tightening their belts/cutting back/etc. so finding work can be tricky.

That's some thoughts anyway First thing I would suggest is come over for a longer visit, and see a bit of the place. Don't just see the tourist sights. See whether it feels right to you, or not.You seem intelligent and interested in current affairs, why not read some of the UK newspaper websites? (and I don't mean the Daily Mail, I mean the intelligent papers! )

Good luck!

dbd33

I don't find much to quibble with in your post but caution you to be aware that lots of people want to live in the UK and especially in London. In consequence it costs like NYC.

Alan2005

You won't be happier in the UK.

The UK isn't what it used to be and you'll be stabbed by a hoodie wearing chav the nano-second you get off the plane. You'll probably receive some "proper" advice soon, but don't listen to them - just remember to avoid being stabbed at every opportunity. Not that there's much opportunity in the UK any more - especially for kids.

Novocastrian

I don't think the OP is quite prepared for your oh-so-subtle British sense of humour.

I also find little or nothing to disagree with in his analysis.

Go for it young Jedi, you won't regret it (and not because the UK is all that much different, but it is different and that's obviously a good thing for you to investigate).

FedUpCanadian

Thanks everyone for your replies!

I'll definitely have a read, thanks!

I've been told the same thing. What I do find more consoling is that the UK already has a lot more -- public services and infrastructure seem to have a substantially higher baseline. For example, I was awestruck by the London transit system. Toronto has just two major lines, which run trains that in some cases were built decades ago. We have literally run out of streetcars, so many don't have functioning heating and have duct tape holding woodgrain siding in place. The stations and vehicles are at best sort of dirty, and are often filthy. Streets have stop-and-go traffic for hours at a time, but no politician wants to even talk about road tolls to clear things up.

I've heard the same. One thing I do have going for me is that I have (and presumably will have) a couple of contract jobs going, which can tide me over in the event that finding work is tough.

I definitely agree -- I'm at more of a "is this a good long-term goal" stage, not so much driving to the nearest airport . I will say that when I was there, I made a point of not just hitting the downtown core attractions, eating at chain restaurants and having pictures taken of me harassing the guards -- I like to get a sense of how people live when I go somewhere. That said, it's a huge place, and I ended up only spending a little bit of time in the (poorer, I gather) east end.

I do sometimes hit them, especially The Guardian and BBC. Some corresponding newspaper advice: don't read any newspapers ending in "Sun". It's not your friend Murdoch, but it's even worse: a chain of newspapers aping The Sun.

dbd33

Poorer is relative. Last year one of my children sold her house on Toronto's Danforth and moved to the east end of London (Tower Hamlets, Limehouse tube). She loves it because she's in a big city with access to Europe and yet she can walk to work. But, she owned a nice house in Toronto in a reasonably fashionable area, her rent in the east end is the equivalent of $1000 a week (GBP450) and she has no chance of buying anything. Stepping into the big league isn't a win in every way.

DandNHill

I have a son more or less your age.
If it was him considering making a big move like that I would ask him "what have you got to loose?"
Go for it, you only live once, you'll have plenty of time to worry about the "what ifs" later in life whether you are in Canada or the UK
Good luck

JonboyE

Although the OP loses points for starting this thread on a Saturday when it should have been yesterday, I generally agree with what others have posted. A change of scene is usually good for everyone now and again.

ExKiwilass

Do it.

Novocastrian

I hope your son would also correct your spelling.

Other than that, I concur.

Alan2005

Yes - I thought it was rather subtle myself; in fact I'm surprised anyone noticed.

(and obviously the OP should go to the UK and enjoy themselves doing whatever young people do now-a-days)

Alan2005

Don't jump to conclusions. Maybe their son has a pet crocodile.

Novocastrian

Way over my head that.

Lord Vader

Someone should tell him that there is a conservative government in the UK as well.