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Canada's vacation politics

Canada's vacation politics

Old Jul 10th 2017, 12:11 am
  #91  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Reeders, you are Howard1944 AICMFP.
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 2:19 am
  #92  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
I would call the tuition fees back breaking unless wealthy. Low income full-time workers can't exactly go to school and pay the tuition so yes it can and is back breaking and prevents people from attending college or gaining further skills.

This little tid bit in student aid eligibility (for BC anyhow) is one hurdle working adults face when they can't afford tuition out of pocket.

"be pursuing full-time studies as your primary occupation"

So yes, tuition and associated costs with higher education is back breaking for a great deal of people.

I disagree completely. StatsCan says the average annual tuition is between $5,000 and $6,000 per year. That is very reasonable, there are a variety of loan packages available, and paying off a $15,000 to $20,000 student loan on a professional starter salary of something like $30,000 to $45,000, is easily doable in 2-3 years if it is a financial priority.

Private loans are possible if you don't qualify for government student aid.

Mature-aged students do need to consider if it makes financial sense for them to retrain. They are not denied the opportunity. Having it not make sense for them to do so financially - is not denial of opportunity.
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 2:28 am
  #93  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

To you 5,000 or 6,000 may not be a lot but to someone working for 12/hr it's a lot of money and not money easily found to pay said tuition.

One of the eligibility requirements in BC for government student loans is to be a full-time student being your primary occupation and generally if working full-time one will not qualify for government student loans.

Private loans might be an option for someone making a decent income, but on a low wage banks don't want to loan money, I have tried, always told my income isn't sufficient.

So since I cannot pay tuition out of pocket, not eligible for government loans, and private loans are not an option, I would certainly call that a denial of opportunity, I do not have the opportunity to train/go to school as I do not have the financial ability to pay the tuition.

And I am certainly not the only person in such a situation.



Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
I disagree completely. StatsCan says the average annual tuition is between $5,000 and $6,000 per year. That is very reasonable, there are a variety of loan packages available, and paying off a $15,000 to $20,000 student loan on a professional starter salary of something like $30,000 to $45,000, is easily doable in 2-3 years if it is a financial priority.

Private loans are possible if you don't qualify for government student aid.

Mature-aged students do need to consider if it makes financial sense for them to retrain. They are not denied the opportunity. Having it not make sense for them to do so financially - is not denial of opportunity.

Last edited by Jsmth321; Jul 10th 2017 at 2:30 am.
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 2:47 am
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
So since I cannot pay tuition out of pocket, not eligible for government loans, and private loans are not an option, I would certainly call that a denial of opportunity, I do not have the opportunity to train/go to school as I do not have the financial ability to pay the tuition.
Well, yes. As long as there's a fee for education, there is not an equal opportunity to be educated. I know people who stopped being educated because they ran out of money before they ran out of ability to comprehend and to pass exams, I expect such stories are common.

The idea of being able to pay off a $20,000 loan in three years while earning $45,000/year in Toronto or Vancouver seems to me silly. It may be that one could live elsewhere but that depends on one's line of work.
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 2:59 am
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

You do have the opportunity. You could downshift to part-time, go to school full-time and accept the loan package for full-time study. You could also work full time and be a full time student, asking your employer to schedule around your classes (within reason). It is up to you to make the calculation as to whether that is worth it, or if you can handle the temporary financial cutback if you switch to part-time. But you do have the opportunity. Lots of people endure financial hardships and cutbacks while they are in university.

Your experience with the banks strikes me as odd. If they are calculating a loan, they would not be calculating your ability to repay on what your income is NOW but what you would project it to be 1-3 years out on graduating with a new qualification. Banks also love sub-prime borrowers because they can charge more fees and impose harsher terms. You could also ask for a smaller loan for one year, enter a repayment schedule, and then do 1 or 2 classes at a time until you finished. I would keep shopping.

If banks are denying loans because of big problems with a client's past borrowing - that again is not society denying someone an opportunity, but someone making life choices in the past that ended up closing future doors.
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 3:02 am
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

dbd33 - it is not reasonable to claim everything should be free or there's no "equal opportunity." The fees being charged by Canadian universities are not disproportionate. If you were talking about an American university charging $25,000 a year - that is a very different conversation.

I also know of people who stopped going to university because of financial reasons. If they had prioritised it and been willing to work out a financial plan and a course plan they could have finished. They chose not to do so. That does not mean they were "denied opportunity." It means there were other opportunities they prioritised over a university degree. Some things are mutually exclusive. When that happens it's not an indictment of society.
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 3:45 am
  #97  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
To you 5,000 or 6,000 may not be a lot...
I'd let this one go Js.

They obviously have no clue about your situation and I was tempted to just leave it at the first 5 words.
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 3:48 am
  #98  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
I'd let this one go Js.

They obviously have no clue about your situation and I was tempted to just leave it at the first 5 words.

. . . and you and Js have no clue about mine (or thousands of others). I do agree it's best to just leave this one.
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 4:23 am
  #99  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
I disagree completely. StatsCan says the average annual tuition is between $5,000 and $6,000 per year. That is very reasonable, there are a variety of loan packages available, and paying off a $15,000 to $20,000 student loan on a professional starter salary of something like $30,000 to $45,000, is easily doable in 2-3 years if it is a financial priority.

Private loans are possible if you don't qualify for government student aid.

Mature-aged students do need to consider if it makes financial sense for them to retrain. They are not denied the opportunity. Having it not make sense for them to do so financially - is not denial of opportunity.
Really, even the Academy of Learning charges more than that for a course and there isn't even a teacher in the room
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 4:29 am
  #100  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
You do have the opportunity. You could downshift to part-time, go to school full-time and accept the loan package for full-time study. You could also work full time and be a full time student, asking your employer to schedule around your classes (within reason). It is up to you to make the calculation as to whether that is worth it, or if you can handle the temporary financial cutback if you switch to part-time. But you do have the opportunity. Lots of people endure financial hardships and cutbacks while they are in university.

Your experience with the banks strikes me as odd. If they are calculating a loan, they would not be calculating your ability to repay on what your income is NOW but what you would project it to be 1-3 years out on graduating with a new qualification. Banks also love sub-prime borrowers because they can charge more fees and impose harsher terms. You could also ask for a smaller loan for one year, enter a repayment schedule, and then do 1 or 2 classes at a time until you finished. I would keep shopping.

If banks are denying loans because of big problems with a client's past borrowing - that again is not society denying someone an opportunity, but someone making life choices in the past that ended up closing future doors.
I think you are simplifying things a heck of a lot, you also have to think about, age, lifestyle, emotional and risk factors when it come to adult learners.

For someone on low income getting a student loan to pay for a one year course and accommodation in the hope they will get a better paid job at the end of it is a scary thought. Not everyone, especially as you age has the stamina to carry out full time education and full time work.
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 4:30 am
  #101  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
I'd let this one go Js.

They obviously have no clue about your situation and I was tempted to just leave it at the first 5 words.
I am done with this thread, I almost think the 2 posters are one in the same....
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 4:35 am
  #102  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

JSmith, my daughter is applying for a university prep course in Ontario, she is classed as a adult learner, apparently, and I don't know the ins and outs as she has just told me and I quote 'Mum, I have just been told that as I'm an adult learner, if I have three thousand dollars in the bank when I apply for school, my tuition is free.'

Now I don't know the details at all, I don't know at what point she has to have the 3k and whether she needs that per semester etc and I know 3k probably seems like the moon to you, but it may be worth looking into?
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 4:43 am
  #103  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
You do have the opportunity. You could downshift to part-time, go to school full-time and accept the loan package for full-time study. You could also work full time and be a full time student, asking your employer to schedule around your classes (within reason). It is up to you to make the calculation as to whether that is worth it, or if you can handle the temporary financial cutback if you switch to part-time. But you do have the opportunity. Lots of people endure financial hardships and cutbacks while they are in university.

Your experience with the banks strikes me as odd. If they are calculating a loan, they would not be calculating your ability to repay on what your income is NOW but what you would project it to be 1-3 years out on graduating with a new qualification. Banks also love sub-prime borrowers because they can charge more fees and impose harsher terms. You could also ask for a smaller loan for one year, enter a repayment schedule, and then do 1 or 2 classes at a time until you finished. I would keep shopping.

If banks are denying loans because of big problems with a client's past borrowing - that again is not society denying someone an opportunity, but someone making life choices in the past that ended up closing future doors.
Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
dbd33 - it is not reasonable to claim everything should be free or there's no "equal opportunity." The fees being charged by Canadian universities are not disproportionate. If you were talking about an American university charging $25,000 a year - that is a very different conversation.

I also know of people who stopped going to university because of financial reasons. If they had prioritised it and been willing to work out a financial plan and a course plan they could have finished. They chose not to do so. That does not mean they were "denied opportunity." It means there were other opportunities they prioritised over a university degree. Some things are mutually exclusive. When that happens it's not an indictment of society.
So that would be food, rent, mortgage, living expenses then perhaps?

"Could" and "should" and the reality are not necessarily the same thing.

If you have a very limited income and a mortgage or rent to pay, bills to pay, food to buy, then working part time or starting/finishing education is just not a feasible option.

Unless you have been in JS's position (and many, many others) where they don't qualify for a grant and cannot obtain alternate financing, you really are not in a position to judge. If's but's and maybe's are all very well and good, but the reality for so many people is completely different.

I think perhaps the time has come for the topic to revert back to the original OP's post... or if you prefer to continue, I can just close the thread and you can start your own.

"Canada's vacation politics"


Last edited by Siouxie; Jul 10th 2017 at 4:56 am.
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 6:35 am
  #104  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
I'd let this one go Js.

They obviously have no clue about your situation and I was tempted to just leave it at the first 5 words.
I agree.
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Old Jul 10th 2017, 7:00 am
  #105  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
Reeders, you are Howard1944 AICMFP.
Oh Christ. Not him again.
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