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Canada's vacation politics

Canada's vacation politics

Old Jul 9th 2017, 6:52 pm
  #76  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Reeders View Post
Sorry BristolUK, if I am missing your point re the 'ability, performance and qualification'. Equal opportunity does not include those according to the definition I linked. It is all before that which is included. Is that how you understand it?
It's really not how I understand it, it's how it is.
...opportunities...should be freely available to all citizens irrespective of their age, race, sex, religion, political association, ethnic origin, or any other individual or group characteristic unrelated to ability, performance, and qualification.

It means you can relate/restrict or limit the opportunity according to ability, performance, and qualification. Don't limit according to perceived characteristic, just to the opportunity-specific needs.

Ability, performance and qualification differ by individual and so anyone who is eliminated as say a job candidate because of those has not been deprived of equal opportunity. Are we in agreement on that?
Yes, if it really is that reason. But the other issues I mentioned are researched and documented.

Level playing field is equally as common a term here with no shortage of sport examples such as baseball or hockey. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. You're in Canada right?
I have pretty much zero interest in North American sports but I know enough that hockey over here is what we would call ice hockey and I'm pretty sure there are no sloping ice rinks and that there's no change of ends in baseball.
(sorry, couldn't resist)
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Old Jul 9th 2017, 6:59 pm
  #77  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

I would call the tuition fees back breaking unless wealthy. Low income full-time workers can't exactly go to school and pay the tuition so yes it can and is back breaking and prevents people from attending college or gaining further skills.

This little tid bit in student aid eligibility (for BC anyhow) is one hurdle working adults face when they can't afford tuition out of pocket.

"be pursuing full-time studies as your primary occupation"

So yes, tuition and associated costs with higher education is back breaking for a great deal of people.




Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
I don't follow your logic.

An unsuccessful job application is not evidence that someone is denied equal opportunity.

In a capitalist democracy, anyone can save up a little money, go into business, go into the stock market.

University entrance is virtually guaranteed to anyone who applies themselves in school and gets decent marks. There are tuition fees - but it is not back-breaking.

They can train to be in whatever profession they want, whether that is doctor or rubbish collector. Whether that training is successful or not is an outcome, not a denial of opportunity.

None of these things are possible in places like, say, Egypt or Vietnam. Even in some EU countries the possibility to re-enter university and re-train for a different profession at a later stage in life is a virtual impossibility.

Not everyone does this, for a variety of reasons, some of which is their fault, some not their fault, some the byproduct of decisions made earlier, some the byproduct of decisions to made to jiggle life priorities and not go that route.

All of which is fine.

To say that not everyone has an equal opportunity because not everyone has the same thing and not everyone is wealthy, is inaccurate.

Or to say someone is denied opportunity because an HR panel hires someone with a slightly worse CV because they got a recommendation from a reliable colleague that they knew - that is not "nepotism" but something sensible and used to be called a "reference check."
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Old Jul 9th 2017, 7:38 pm
  #78  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

I understand what you are saying Souixie but I fail to see what it has to do with equal opportunity. If you applied for the same job as I did, I would get the job since I am a Canadian, is that what you are saying? That you would be at a disadvantage? If so, I agree that's probably true.

The opportunity is equal for both of us but your qualifications will not equal mine. Qualifications however have nothing to do with an equal opportunity. That seems to be the point that some people just don't get. You don't get to come to Canada and be my equal, you just aren't my equal in experience or qualifications in CANADIAN terms and you ARE in Canada. So I have an advantage at least initially, that's just the way it is but it has nothing to do with an equal opportunity to apply for that job.

Let's try the shoe on the other foot. If I moved tomorrow to the UK, how would I fare in getting a sales job compared to experienced UK salespeople? Would I be at a disadvantage? Or would I have an advantage? I'm guessing (because I want to show you how you such a belief could be wrong) that you will say I would be at a disadvantage.

In fact, I moved 'back' to the UK some years ago for a short period of time. It was after I had retired and came about because I met and married my now wife. She needed to put in a couple of more years before she could take early retirement, so we lived in the UK for that period of time.

To fill in some time, I took a part time job designing and selling decking for back gardens. Why didn't a Brit get that job? I had no UK sales experience after all. At that time, decks were still a comparatively new thing in the UK. I happened to see a guy loading deck boarding into a trailer at a building supply outlet where I was looking to buy some decking to build my own deck onto our new house. I got talking to the guy and asked him why it was that everyone in the UK seemed to lay decking upside down?

He asked what I meant and I explained that decking in N. America is all smooth and that the grooves that the mills in Norway cut in the pressure treated lumber they send to the UK for use in decking, were stress relief grooves. They are intended to keep the board from warping into a curve as it naturally wants to do because of the tree rings. They go on the underside. The belief that they are intended to be on the top side is still a common belief in the UK today. People step off a decked dock onto the wooden deck of a sailboat and never wonder why the sailboat has smooth decks (teak on the more expensive boats) and yet the dock had grooves in the boards. See a conundrum in that comparison? A bare foot on a smooth teak deck will have more grip than a bare foot on a grooved deck, it's as simple as understanding the word friction.

He asked what I was doing in the UK and I explained I was retired and living there because of my recent marriage. He owned the decking company and offered me a job on the spot. I wasn't at a disadvantage compared to UK sales people, I had an advantage. I was more qualified than they were in my knowledge of decking and at least equal in my sales experience. I built my first deck with my Father when I was 15 or so and quite a few since then. What's more it turned out I actually had a secret weapon as well, my accent. When I would go to a prospective customer's house to talk to them about a deck, I had immediate credibility since they generally knew that decks were a N. American idea and so that's where the expertise came from, as did I.

Like I said, I don't want to play on a level playing field, I prefer having the advantage and that even exists sometimes when you didn't even know you had it. LOL

Last edited by Reeders; Jul 9th 2017 at 7:44 pm.
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Old Jul 9th 2017, 7:50 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
So yes, tuition and associated costs with higher education is back breaking for a great deal of people.
There are many opportunities and funding options for some groups. Largely many folks don't know how and where to find the.

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/be...education.html
http://www.bowmanemployment.com/jobseekers
Self-Employment Program (SEP) for PPMB & PWD - Province of British Columbia
Single Parent Employment Initiative - Province of British Columbia
https://www.workbc.ca/Training-Education.aspx
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Old Jul 9th 2017, 7:52 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Because you keep saying you are an immigrant - but whilst you are technically an immigrant (as are the majority of the people who live in North America) in reality you are a Canadian and have been since you were a child.

I don't think you can grasp that there is a difference between an immigrant who has grown up in Canada from a very early age and an immigrant who has come over as an adult.

Your 'mindset' is as a Canadian, not as an immigrant, your responses clearly reflect that.

There are many people who are discriminated against due to their ethnicity, education, what school they went to and the like - even when they are equally as qualified and capable of doing a job. As someone posted upthread, nepotism is rife in Canada "it's not what you know, it's who you know'... something you don't seem to have a problem with - perhaps because you have been in Canada since an early age.

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Old Jul 9th 2017, 8:02 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

I can't say discrimination doesn't ever exist in Canada BristolUK, of course it does but it is far from a norm and culturally it is totally unacceptable to 99% of Canadians. You only have to look at the recent uproar over the woman who went in to a Medical Clinic in Mississauga, Ontario and demanded that her son be seen by a 'white' doctor. Public outrage was very clear.

I think all you are saying is that because it exists lets say in 1 in 100 instances, we can't say equal opportunity exists for all immigrants. I suppose if you want to split hairs then that is true but I prefer to look at the 99 rather than the 1 and say equal opportunity does exist.

So do they actually have some sloping sports fields in the UK BristolUK? Don't they know how to make a field level? Sorry couldn't resist that one either.
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Old Jul 9th 2017, 8:37 pm
  #82  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Reeders View Post
So do they actually have some sloping sports fields in the UK BristolUK? Don't they know how to make a field level? Sorry couldn't resist that one either.
Well, now, that's not always possible.





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Old Jul 9th 2017, 8:40 pm
  #83  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Reeders View Post
I'll give your comments the attention they are obviously worth Novocastrian.

Can anyone tell me if there an ignore function in this forum?
Yes there is. But of course you need to find it yourself.

I'm sorry to have been tardy in reply, but I've been entertaining guests from the Uk here in France.
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Old Jul 9th 2017, 9:12 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Quite a lively discussion here today. In between writing responses I've been out and cut the grass (half acre but on a riding mower, 20 minutes) and a run to the supermarket to pick up a few things.

OK, Siouxie, I was not an adult when I immigrated but there is certainly no shortage of those who were and have done well. They had the same opportunities as anyone else posting here and overcame any difficulties that they had to face. As I said earlier in this thread, not everyone is gonna make it work, that's just how it is. Some have what it takes and some don't, just like most other things in life.

As for nepotism, that is something I can say I have never really seen during my working life in Canada. Sure some summer jobs go to the children of employees etc. but that's hardly nepotism. I would most definitely take exception to, " nepotism is rife in Canada "it's not what you know, it's who you know'... something you don't seem to have a problem with".

First I don't think it is 'rife' as I've never seen it as I have said. It's not what you know vs. who you know is something that exists everywhere in the world but it won't get you a job as a carpenter if you aren't a qualified carpenter or any other type of job where a specific qualification is required. At higher level jobs, networking is most definitely a factor I would grant you. But it isn't a question of I accept that, it's more that I would ignore it.

Perhaps instead of talking about equal opportunity we should talk about integrating. When do you move from being an immigrant talking about how you aren't treated equally, to being a Canadian who no longer has that excuse to use?

I was very pleasantly surprised by how quickly my wife became Canadian. She took to life in Canada like a duck to water from day one. For her it was all a new adventure with new things to learn and experience. I can tell you exactly when I realized that she was in fact Canadian. It was when I first heard her use the words 'we' and 'us' when referring to Canada. That came after only a couple of years of living here.

Some people never make that shift in their mind at all. I do think that there has to be a connection between that and things people complain about here. When someone complains about 'Canadian experience' being required by an employer for example, does a new graduate from a Canadian school say, 'how am I supposed to have Canadian experience when I've just finished school?' No, they go out and get the experience the employer wants them to have and then apply again. They don't get to say, 'I'm not being treated equally.' Yes they are being treated equally, the equal of any other Canadian without experience, just as any immigrant without Canadian experience is being treated too.

Holding on to your past country just gives you an excuse to claim you are not being treated equally. If you see yourself as a Canadian, that excuse doesn't exist.
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Old Jul 9th 2017, 9:18 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Hah, loved the pictures BristolUK. Looks to me like there is a serious opportunity for a Canadian landscape architect to make a killing in the UK showing them how to build a level playing field. Obviously, the competition from UK landscapers isn't up to much. Should be an easy win for a Canadian immigrant to the UK.
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Old Jul 9th 2017, 9:33 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Reeders View Post

I was not an adult when I immigrated but there is certainly no shortage of those who were and have done well. .
Hallo. I'm one of them. I'm also a Canadiain citizen, but since I chose not to deal with Canada any longer than necessary, I left at the first financially sensible opportunity.

My eldest son, who was 12 when we dragged him there and is now 35, will be leaving on a one way ticket to Paris on July 20th.

For good.
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Old Jul 9th 2017, 10:01 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics



Canada has been my home for nearly 16 years.. I am well integrated, thank you.

Even born and bred Canadians I know tell me that nepotism is rife... I think, perhaps, you have been very forotunate not to come across it.
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Old Jul 9th 2017, 11:18 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Reeders View Post
I am the son of a coal miner and my two sons are both in top management in the financial sector of business today. That's what Canada offers any immigrant.
Wait a minute, this is all very familiar. Don't you live in Collingwood or Meaford or one of those retirement towns? I'll remember your other name eventually.
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Old Jul 9th 2017, 11:33 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Siouxie View Post


Canada has been my home for nearly 16 years.. I am well integrated, thank you.

Even born and bred Canadians I know tell me that nepotism is rife... I think, perhaps, you have been very forotunate not to come across it.


I have been here 12 years, in fact have been in Canada more of my adult life then my own country, and my wife agrees that nepotism is pretty rife here, and I agree it is, I see it all the time.
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Old Jul 9th 2017, 11:39 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post


I have been here 12 years, in fact have been in Canada more of my adult life then my own country, and my wife agrees that nepotism is pretty rife here, and I agree it is, I see it all the time.
I find I'm in a difficult position when seeing a college student take a summer job at the firm where a parent works. The assumption by all parties is that the next forty years of work are arranged on that first "take your kids to work day". I want to scream at the students "get yerselves a happeth a gumption and do something else" but they're grateful to avoid having to think and they settle.
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