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Canada's vacation politics

Canada's vacation politics

Old Jul 11th 2017, 6:15 pm
  #151  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Reeders View Post
I'm surprised that the Moderators allow such off topic and childish comments to remain on a thread. I mean, a comment or two maybe but whole pages of them? But I don't own the forum so, what is, is.

I do find the additional comments on nepotism interesting. I suppose it has to do with the frame of reference you have. I can understand the sons/daughters of employees getting the summer jobs when those jobs are low skilled jobs. I can also understand that bothering an immigrant who hoped to get one of those jobs if it might lead to full time employment.

But I was thinking of nepotism in relation to full time skilled jobs and I haven't personally seen any cases of that. As I said, nepotism won't get someone a qualified carpenter's job if they aren't a qualified carpenter.

RICH, yes I exaggerated somewhat when saying there's no real money to be made as an employee of a small business. I can think of several small businesses in terms of number of employees where an individual could earn 6 figures plus. I was referring to the typical small business however where the total sales of the business would never allow for a higher income. Things like a variety store or a single retail store, etc.

I'm having trouble with this one: "BS. Earning less than average doesn't mean that the individual is below average. It could mean that the job itself pays below average. Not all market sectors are equal, and not everyone measures success by $ earned either."

I don't disagree with any of that, what I meant was, if someone has a below average income and is not happy with that, what are they doing about it? Whether it is income or vacation time they are not happy about, complaining about what is, will not change anything. So what change do they plan to make to get what they want?

Finally, I will repeat, I am not Howard whoever or anyone else. So those who thought I am, just live with your foot in mouth issues and move on.
Example of nepotism.

Multi national company, revenue in the millions - franchise branch, with turnover in the millions.

General manager was promoted to that position due to their contacts at the head office, not through work ethic, experience or qualification.

General manager of same branch promoted their nephew over staff that had been there for several years with much more experience and qualifications.

One franchise owner insisted their son and daughter were given jobs in middle management, despite neither of them having any experience. Another partner forced the promotion of their son.

Another example.

Multi national company, revenue in the millions.

Engneering position available, several candidates that more than met the requirements and experience. Position went to the plant managers friend, who had less experience and qualifications than the other candidates.

Co-generation company, revenue in the hundreds of thousands.

2 Power Engineer positions available. Repeat of the above, but friends and family of current management / employees were given the positions, not any of the (more qualified, more experienced) candidates.

It happens, frequently.

Oh - and this is regarding Canadians, not immigrants.

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Old Jul 11th 2017, 6:44 pm
  #152  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Siouxie View Post
Example of nepotism.

Multi national company, revenue in the millions - franchise branch, with turnover in the millions.

General manager was promoted to that position due to their contacts at the head office, not through work ethic, experience or qualification.

General manager of same branch promoted their nephew over staff that had been there for several years with much more experience and qualifications.

One franchise owner insisted their son and daughter were given jobs in middle management, despite neither of them having any experience. Another partner forced the promotion of their son.

Another example.

Multi national company, revenue in the millions.

Engneering position available, several candidates that more than met the requirements and experience. Position went to the plant managers friend, who had less experience and qualifications than the other candidates.

Co-generation company, revenue in the hundreds of thousands.

2 Power Engineer positions available. Repeat of the above, but friends and family of current management / employees were given the positions, not any of the (more qualified, more experienced) candidates.

It happens, frequently.

Oh - and this is regarding Canadians, not immigrants.

Oh! You've reminded me of Ontario Hydro (OPG/New Horizons/WhateverThisWeek), it offers well paid jobs in rural locations. Your choice in those locations is to operate a nuclear power station or try out for the LCBO. The power station operators all look the same. It's like the "Dufferin County Ear" only affecting the whole face, when first I was there I thought it was something to do with nuclear waste but it's not, it's just that those jobs are, er, closely held.

Still, those aren't the summer jobs leading to management I was thinking of earlier.
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Old Jul 11th 2017, 11:57 pm
  #153  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Franchise jobs generally indicate to me low skill jobs at any level, so I would discount that example as a 'who cares who gets those jobs.' I can see nepotism being able to work in those cases and wouldn't dispute it sometimes does.

The engineering jobs however I would not discount if you were trying to tell me that someone without a P. Eng. qualification got a job that required one. You say they had, "less experience and qualifications" but without doubting you believe what you say, I have to say it is an opinion. There is only one hard qualification for an engineering job, that is a P. Eng. Beyond that, comes things like specific experience related to the job in question, attitude, personality, etc. etc. If there are 2 P. Eng candidates, both are qualified but the one who gets the job may not be the one you think should have got the job. You are not making the choice, someone else is. Neither is 'better qualified'. One is more 'suitable'.

A Power Engineer is a specific sub-set of an Electrical Engineer. A qualified Electrical Engineer is a P. Eng. So again, if 2 candidates are qualified, beyond that it is the person's who is hiring, preference as to which gets the job. Beyond the objective qualification, the decision is subjective. That does not necessarily mean it was due to nepotism. Would you hire someone you if it were your decision if you simply didn't like the cut of their jib as the saying goes? I wouldn't.

I'm not saying nepotism doesn't exist, but you (and others) keep saying it is nepotism because in your opinion someone else was better qualified and experienced. Yet, there is no such thing as 'better qualified' in your 2 engineering examples other than a P. Eng. designation. The right to wear that hand filed iron ring on your pinky finger, that's the only qualification.

Dbd33, I get your example of Dufferin County. Let's be realistic though. Everyone working in a business in those areas is going to have to be related since no one else wants to live there.

It's like say Shell, Sunoco, etc. in Sarnia. Are most of the workers in those plants related, hell yeah. The only people who want to work in Sarnia are people born in Sarnia. OK, a newly arrived immigrant for some unknown reason decides to settle there and has difficulty competing for a job. Yup, a victim of nepotism. Yup, they shouldn't have chosen a place where that was pretty much inevitable.
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Old Jul 12th 2017, 12:18 am
  #154  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

You misunderstand what a Power Engineer is they are not P.Eng's they are power plant operators/Techs and are qualified through Class 1-4 certificates. They are not engineers in the same way as a professional engineer.
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Old Jul 12th 2017, 12:20 am
  #155  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Reeders View Post
Franchise jobs generally indicate to me low skill jobs at any level, so I would discount that example as a 'who cares who gets those jobs.' I can see nepotism being able to work in those cases and wouldn't dispute it sometimes does.

The engineering jobs however I would not discount if you were trying to tell me that someone without a P. Eng. qualification got a job that required one. You say they had, "less experience and qualifications" but without doubting you believe what you say, I have to say it is an opinion. There is only one hard qualification for an engineering job, that is a P. Eng. Beyond that, comes things like specific experience related to the job in question, attitude, personality, etc. etc. If there are 2 P. Eng candidates, both are qualified but the one who gets the job may not be the one you think should have got the job. You are not making the choice, someone else is. Neither is 'better qualified'. One is more 'suitable'.

A Power Engineer is a specific sub-set of an Electrical Engineer. A qualified Electrical Engineer is a P. Eng. So again, if 2 candidates are qualified, beyond that it is the person's who is hiring, preference as to which gets the job. Beyond the objective qualification, the decision is subjective. That does not necessarily mean it was due to nepotism. Would you hire someone you if it were your decision if you simply didn't like the cut of their jib as the saying goes? I wouldn't.

I'm not saying nepotism doesn't exist, but you (and others) keep saying it is nepotism because in your opinion someone else was better qualified and experienced. Yet, there is no such thing as 'better qualified' in your 2 engineering examples other than a P. Eng. designation. The right to wear that hand filed iron ring on your pinky finger, that's the only qualification.

Dbd33, I get your example of Dufferin County. Let's be realistic though. Everyone working in a business in those areas is going to have to be related since no one else wants to live there.

It's like say Shell, Sunoco, etc. in Sarnia. Are most of the workers in those plants related, hell yeah. The only people who want to work in Sarnia are people born in Sarnia. OK, a newly arrived immigrant for some unknown reason decides to settle there and has difficulty competing for a job. Yup, a victim of nepotism. Yup, they shouldn't have chosen a place where that was pretty much inevitable.
How many companies did you say you worked for? Do you actually have any experience other than as "National Sales Manager" and your lead up to it?

I'm flabbergasted that you would say that a franchise company position are 'low skills positions at any level' - or don't you believe that a job paying in excess of $75,000 would be a skilled position? How about a degree and numerous industry related certifications? Still unskilled? Do you really have any idea at all what you are talking about? I am beginning to wonder.

Power Engineers don't require a P.Eng as I am sure you are well aware. They require 1st/2nd/3rd class (and even 4th or 5th) Power Engineer certification. the Institute of Power Engineers of Canada

So, in your opinion, someone with more than 20+ years experience with a 1st or 2nd class certification - together with an 'A' Refridgeration License and various H&S certifications - shouldn't have got the job over a 3rd class with 5 years experience --- who just happened to be related or very close friends with the Plant Manager.

Your rebuttal holds no water and quite honestly I find your dismissive, superior attitude in general quite offensive.
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Old Jul 12th 2017, 12:44 am
  #156  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Yeah, I suspected that was what was being referred to johntheScot. In the UK, I am aware that the term Engineer is not as defined as in Canada. In Canada, you cannot (or could not while I was still working for a living) call yourself an Engineer if you don't have a P. Eng. qualification.

But in appears that in regards to this area of industry, the UK type watered down use of the name has been allowed to sneak in. I'm surprised that the the OSPE and PEO organizations haven't objected (or maybe they have) to the term Engineer being used by those who are in fact not Professional Engineers. But times change I suppose.

In general, I can accept that nepotism exists in low skill jobs. Even in high level but not necessarily high skill jobs. Trump can make his son a VP of a multi-million business for example. But I do not think it will be found to any appreciable degree whatsoever in high skill jobs. High skill jobs don't even necessarily mean jobs like Engineering where a specific course of study and qualification has to be followed.

Trump could give his son a sales job in a field such as I worked in but the reality is that he would be very unlikely to succeed in the job. Someone selling something to a large company like a Shell Oil or Abitibi Paper, for $1 -10million, is gonna have to know what they are talking about to make that sale. Someone's son or nephew or whatever fresh out of school ain't gonna cut it. So nepotism simply would not work because the person simply would not have the knowledge and experience required to get it done.

So let's all agree nepotism exists in regards to some jobs and leave it at that. I'll agree that it seems to exist to an extent I was not aware of. The only question left would be so what should an immigrant do who encounters it. My answer is, move on. Find a job where nepotism will not work. Don't keep trying for jobs where it will, that's doing more of the same and expecting a different outcome.
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Old Jul 12th 2017, 1:34 am
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Sounds like my type of retirement...Not sure I will ever retire though.

Originally Posted by Howefamily View Post
I want to retire and travel everywhere in an RV, with loads of free time to do what I want when I want
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Old Jul 12th 2017, 5:19 am
  #158  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Reeders View Post
Yeah, I suspected that was what was being referred to johntheScot. In the UK, I am aware that the term Engineer is not as defined as in Canada. In Canada, you cannot (or could not while I was still working for a living) call yourself an Engineer if you don't have a P. Eng. qualification.

But in appears that in regards to this area of industry, the UK type watered down use of the name has been allowed to sneak in. I'm surprised that the the OSPE and PEO organizations haven't objected (or maybe they have) to the term Engineer being used by those who are in fact not Professional Engineers. But times change I suppose.

In general, I can accept that nepotism exists in low skill jobs. Even in high level but not necessarily high skill jobs. Trump can make his son a VP of a multi-million business for example. But I do not think it will be found to any appreciable degree whatsoever in high skill jobs. High skill jobs don't even necessarily mean jobs like Engineering where a specific course of study and qualification has to be followed.

Trump could give his son a sales job in a field such as I worked in but the reality is that he would be very unlikely to succeed in the job. Someone selling something to a large company like a Shell Oil or Abitibi Paper, for $1 -10million, is gonna have to know what they are talking about to make that sale. Someone's son or nephew or whatever fresh out of school ain't gonna cut it. So nepotism simply would not work because the person simply would not have the knowledge and experience required to get it done.

So let's all agree nepotism exists in regards to some jobs and leave it at that. I'll agree that it seems to exist to an extent I was not aware of. The only question left would be so what should an immigrant do who encounters it. My answer is, move on. Find a job where nepotism will not work. Don't keep trying for jobs where it will, that's doing more of the same and expecting a different outcome.
Stationary Engineers have held that title for over 100 years, it's not "watered down version has been allowed to creep in';. The courts have upheld the right to use the term (also Power Engineers, Marine Engineers, Railway Engineers etc). Their titles were actually in use before the 'design Engineer' was even a job.

Perhaps you should do your homework before throwing around such derogatory terms.
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Old Jul 12th 2017, 5:56 am
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Siouxie, why don't you name the specific kind of franchise jobs you are referring to and the position that pays $75k and requires a degree (in what by the way).

As I wrote, franchise jobs GENERALLY indicate low skill jobs at any level to ME. McDonalds or Boston Pizza are multi national, multi-million dollar franchise companies. They fit the only description you gave. Do you consider a burger flipper a skilled job? How about a MickeyD's manager? The ones I usually see are around 18 or 19 years old as often as not. Or are you referring to a Midas Muffler or Speedy Auto Glass? I'd say the average income and age tends to be a bit higher in those franchises.

So why are you flabbergasted at my comment? Because you were referring to one specific kind of franchise operation and ignoring the vast majority of franchise operations? I'd say it is I who should be flabbergasted at you being flabbergasted by my comment. I'd say that most Canadians if you use the term 'franchise' will think of the type of franchises I have just mentioned. Tell me the one they won't think of that you were thinking about.

Power 'engineers' did not exist in my working life. An Engineer is a P. Eng. Ask any Engineer and he will tell you so. I suggest you don't ask a Power engineer however.

As for your example of a 3rd class getting a job over a 1/2 class and your question to me of whether in my opinion that is acceptable, well, I don't know. Did the job specify it was for a 1/2 class Power engineer or did it just say a qualified Power engineer, or suitable for a class 3 or higher Power engineer? Did you read the job ad? I don't know the circumstances so I can't really give you an opinion on it can I. You assume it was a 'connection', I don't assume anything about it. If the 3rd class guy could do what the job requirements need him to do, why shouldn't he get it, he would be qualified for the job. Have you never heard of someone applying for a job for which they were OVER qualified and not getting it for that specific reason?

Employers often pass over more qualified applicants simply because they know that there is a good chance that person will leave them as soon as a better job comes along whereas the level 3 guy (as in your example) isn't likely to see a better job come along that they are qualified for. An employer can pass over a better qualified guy because they want to take in a younger guy with less experience and less bad habits, so that they can train him to do things their way. There are countless reasons pass someone over that make sense. They might even prefer a lowly level 4 over both. And yes, they might even pass over all 3 guys because a good looking female Power engineer who was also qualified applied. No one said life was fair. Heck, I might have passed over the level 1/2 in favour of the level 3 simply because the level 1/2 is fat and I figure he will need to take more time of for doctor's visits.

You suggest the only difference that mattered was the level 3 guy had a 'connection'. You may be right, you may not but don't ask me to believe something just because you believe it. You may be wrong in your belief. Or are you not willing to admit to that possibility?

Employers can discriminate for all kinds of reasons, which yes, I accept can include nepotism. But it is not the only reason possible even when you may believe it was the reason. People sue for discrimination in the workplace every single day. Sometimes they win those cases and some times they don't. So what about those that don't? How did they get it wrong? Clearly they were better qualified or not the nephew, how could a judge not see it was obviously nepotism?

It seems clear to me that some people here have a real bug in their ear in regards to this topic of nepotism. Fine, that's your problem to deal with. Personally, I haven't seen it and if I did, what, would it be in every job I applied for? I'd just chalk that one up to bad luck and MOVE ON.

I've already said, I accept it exists to an extent I was not aware of but accept based on comments I have now read. What more do you want me to say, that I think it is rampant? I doubt that very much indeed. While it may exist in some businesses at any level, that is not the same as saying it exists in the majority of businesses. I think it is far more likely to exist in a small percentage of the total number of jobs. Enough to annoy someone when they figure they lost out on a job or promotion because of it, but not enough to make it rampant as I've read in a comment here earlier.

I've just had a look and while I can find lots of links on 'nepotism in the Canadian workplace', I cannot find one link that talks about the degree or number of businesses where nepotism goes on. Lots of info on anti-nepotism policies for companies and an interesting article about the Supreme Court finding in favour of a lifeguard applicant who was turned down because her Mother worked for the town already. Reverse nepotism in other words.

That reminds me that I have encountered something of that nature in my past. Most companies I was familiar with frowned on 'fraternization' within the company and if a guy and gal 'hooked up', they would be separated in terms of their work and supervision. In other words, you couldn't be your boyfriend or girlfriend (or husband or wife's) boss. Made sense to me. The same would hold true of a son or daughter working in a company. The Father/Mother could not be their direct supervisor. But the son or daughter could be hired based on their qualifications for the job just like anyone else. You don't get to discriminate against them just because they are a son, daughter, nephew or friend either you know.

I'm sorry to read that you find my attitude to be dismissive and superior. I know I would not want to feel I had been dismissed or was considered inferior by someone. It is not my intent to dismiss you or make you feel inferior. I'm simply interested in discussing a topic unemotionally and based on the evidence available to me.

Nepotism exists, I accept and acknowledge it appears to be more so than I was aware of. Let's move on.
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Old Jul 12th 2017, 12:28 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Hotels are typically franchised these days even higher end ones.

A GM in a large franchise hotel can make good money as can several other types of management and I would call managing a large hotel a skilled management job and does typically require a bachelors degree.
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Old Jul 12th 2017, 12:58 pm
  #161  
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Aviator View Post
Do you reckon he voted for Maggie?
Does the Pope $**t in the woods?
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Old Jul 12th 2017, 4:07 pm
  #162  
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Yes that's true Jsmth321 but it doesn't change what generally comes to mind when someone says, 'franchise business' does it? Is my take on what 'franchise business' generally indicates, reason for someone to be 'flabbergasted' because I didn't immediately think of a hotel franchise? Would my not immediately thinking of that flabbergast you?

People lose out on jobs and promotions for all kinds of reasons, some of them even very silly. But I'm not here to commiserate with people or spend time complaining about what is. I'm here to share what knowledge and experience I have with immigrants who want to know how to get ahead in Canada.

I've already wasted enough time in this thread having allowed myself to be sidetracked into meaningless argument over things like nepotism and Power engineers, etc. So let's change it up.

OK, as an immigrant the deck is stacked against you from nepotism through 'Canadian experience' to your accent just not being a Canadian accent. It's rampant, rife, everywhere. Everybody happy?

Now, what are you going to do to get the life you want? (these comments are not directed at you Jsmth321, they're directed at those complaining) Move past what you wish was and deal with what is. Because one thing is certain, complaining about what is and blaming everyone but yourself for why you are unhappy with your life, while doing nothing to change it, is going to get you nowhere.

I'm done with this thread unless someone wants to talk about something that matters.
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Old Jul 12th 2017, 5:35 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by Reeders View Post
OK, as an immigrant the deck is stacked against you from nepotism through 'Canadian experience' to your accent just not being a Canadian accent. It's rampant, rife, everywhere.
IME that's not true of the accent. In fact, hoi polloi moving from London to Canada experience a double benefit; here people like the accent and think it quite posh while, at the same time, the stigma what one experienced from having it vanishes.

I think it fair to say that having a novelty accent, and a nimble tongue, has been the making of me.
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Old Jul 12th 2017, 8:21 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
IME that's not true of the accent. In fact, hoi polloi moving from London to Canada experience a double benefit; here people like the accent and think it quite posh while, at the same time, the stigma what one experienced from having it vanishes.

I think it fair to say that having a novelty accent, and a nimble tongue, has been the making of me.
Some accents carry more cache than others. Jamie Carragher would have a harder time wooing the ladies than someone like Hugh Grant.
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Old Jul 12th 2017, 8:23 pm
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Default Re: Canada's vacation politics

[QUOTE=Reeders;12292835]Yes that's true Jsmth321 but it doesn't change what generally comes to mind when someone says, 'franchise business' does it?
/QUOTE]

The only person I know here in Canada in the franchise world owns 4 franchises of a personal beauty products business (mainly for females) and he seems to be doing rather well in life. MBA educated and good at sales and entrepreneurship. He has been at it for 12 years but dealing with the sales staff and their dramas drives him up the wall.
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