IT in Canada
 

Hi Guys,
I'm really glad I've come across this website, interesting reading.
I've just applied for our visa (Feb 2004) so am looking at another 12 months down the line before we make the move.
I'm a self employed IT expert in the UK (C, C++ UNIX etc). I've been working as self employed for about 7 years (15 years in total), never out of work and I usually earn a really good rate (around £40 per hour at the mo). I downloaded some information from the Canadian Immigration website which mentioned that in Canada I can expect to earn about $10 per hour!!! Eeek. Now don't get me wrong as I'm not moving for career reasons, far from it as I'd love to get as far away from IT as possible, but $10 per hour, that's' about £4.34 an hour!! I may as well buy a B&B (which is what I'd like to do anyway ;) ).
Can someone please give me a really rough estimate on what a programmer is likely to earn in Canada? I really appreciate your help.

I know this isn't much help but just had to comment.

When I came to England in 1980, I was earning 17,000CDN with my PL/1 and IMS experience and got a job over here paying 5,600 GBP. The exchange rate at the time was 2.62 CDN to the pound. Boy, how the times change!

No idea if that $10/hr figure is realistic or not, but the other factor you have to consider is can you find work at all.

I'm a software trainer, earning about the same as you in the UK, and with plenty of work. I have recently been in Canada on a fact-finding visit and do not get the feeling the IT market is particularly buoyant - not in the Toronto area anyway. Certainly, the Canadian employment market appears to operate very differently from that in the UK - I won't repeat what's already been said - see the Canadian Experience thread.

I think the best idea is to pre-arrange a job in Canada, before coming over. Failing that, try to make as many Canadian contacts as possible, as work may well come via this informal route, rather than via agencies and job applications.

I'd also urge you take some time in Canada finding out the facts, as I have done. Come for as long as you can, so you not only get the facts about prospects in your line of work, but get the feel of the place. If anything schedule more time than you need - if you're dashing about all the time meeting potential employers and contacts, you won't have time to let the general atmosphere of the country sink in.

I'd also be wary about selling a UK property too hastily to come over to Canada. On Canadian pay and with Canadian property prices, you may never be able to get back into the UK property market if you wanted to.

Remember these, just came across it in an old Radioshack catalogue:

How about a harddrive, look at the prices for a MB ( Not GB ), Gordon Bennet :scared:

This is really good advice I think, although with the number of qualified IT candidates already here it may be very hard to land a job from outside canada. I think mickj's is a good example of how to do it, he didnt sit on his arse feeling sorry for himself, IIRC he got a canadian qualification, volunteered his services for free to a charity and landed a job through contacts made that way....hes already 90% of the way to being a canadian I think:)

Good Luck

Iain

Re: IT in Canada
 

Hi, good questions, you cannot over reasearch this area!!


If you can - come over and meet up with folk already here (there are yahoo groups for exBrits in Calgary, Toronto and Vancouver) and then network like crazy!

The IT market is quite flat. Unlike Britain where say, about 50% of jobs go through word of mouth or personal recommendation - over here it is about 80%

Clare

Thanks guys all very useful advice. The people on this site are great because all I've had to go on so far is Canada News and the Vancouver Sun!!!
I'm actually on my way over to BC (Vancouver and Kelowna) next week for 2 1/2 weeks on my fact finding mission! (I can't wait by the way :D) I'm intending to do as much research as I can about work and I'll attempt to get in touch with some companies and agencies, that bit's gonna be tricky as I'm going over a bit blindfolded.
The IT market over here is also pretty flat (mainly after 9-11). I've been lucky and have managed to get some pretty long term contracts though, but some of my IT friends have now become plasterers, plumbers and one of them is even opened up an underwear shop!!!! :eek:
It's such a difficult choice to make as to what to do. I'm in a very lucky position because I could sell our house and make enough on it to buy a property in Canada outright, No mortgage, bliss. But it's true that unless the property market stops going up over in the UK we could lose out if we decide to return. I truly believe though that something really drastic would have to happen for us to return here! We've got young children (5,3 and 2) and I'd hate to uproot them then bring them all the way back. But you can't predict the future.
I was hopeing for some better news regarding IT jobs in Canada. I've been offered a transfer from my current employer which will get me a 'job offer' which the Embassy need so much, this will not only boost my points, but I could move quicker with the fast track and maybe even a 12 month temp work visa. It'll allow me to work whilst we're finding our feet, but it's fairly short term and worst of all it'll mean working from home. Normally I wouldnt mind this, but I obviously want to get out and about and meet new friends etc.
Maybe I'll become a fisherman after all :cool:
Thanks again,
Col

I suggest that the I.T. market in North America is still suffering from the Dot-com backlash where I.T. people lost a lot of credibility regarding their approach to business.

Gosh I wish I'd known about that Yahoo Toronto group during my visit. The one thing my visit showed me is that networking is so important in Canada - it seems a tough place to "go it alone" with only your UK experience, no matter how good, to recommend you.

I would take the transfer, the work permit is definately a good way to check out the country, although I take your point about working at home. At least on the work permit if you find Canada isnt what you were expecting, you have not got a lot invested in the immigration process in terms of time and money. The second advantage is that as far as canadian employers are concered, they will see you are working in canada, and therefore have the precious canadian experience! Its a win-win situation.

Of course in order to work for a different employer you would have to apply for PR too, but general experience of people coming here and applying from within canada (through Buffalo NY) is less than 12 month wait for PR, although I am not sure what the current timeline is.

All the best

Iain

Col, have you joined B2V group (or Van-immi) One of those groups sends a Word file to new members suggesting ways to network.

Check the techvibes Vancouver site for ideas of events coming up http://www.techvibes.com/ (It is a site that is getting better, check out the forums too..)

There are lots of IT profs on the two Vancouver yahoo groups
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/van-immi/
and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Brits2Vancouver/

Say when you are over and seeking to meet up with IT folk and hopefully someone will suggest a meet up at a pub :D


TTFN
Clare

Re: IT in Canada
 

Not sure where you got those numbers from, but it's nonsense. I have worked in Vancouver for the last 10 years as a software developer - the last 5 of them I consulted, and usually charge between $65 and $125 per hour, depending on size of client/job.

Re: IT in Canada
 

Just got back from Calgary last month and about to kick off the PR submission, Decision made and the long process begins, hovever whilst there I contacted a couple of agencies and through friends got in touch with HR depts and IT people to get a feel for rates and salaries.

The view i got for the type of role I would be looking at was between $65 - $110 per hour for an experienced IT professional, with PM experience, interim management or at consulting level and advise was to start at the lower end and prove your self. The key is getting CE or in the case of contracting gettng known for delivering what is required, and as often money talks, volentary work or offering your services at well under maket rate would help get that first shot to prove yourself and gain CE.

Im fortunate in that I have a opportunity to transfer with my organaisation, a global org as my team are planning on upping recruitment in ca, however this is tempered with location restrictions and limited oppertunities in Calgary for me. As for permanant roles I was given similar numbers $65K to $110K as an indicative guide which by all accounts is a very good salary level.

As is the case the world over you have to make your own opportunities and work to make things happen, Networking seems to be key, get to know your neigbours, join the golf club or Gym, network through the church, meet parents of your kids school firends, offer volentary groups your skills and time even if they dont need your skills, work with agencies, make them see you as a top candidate, and they will work for you, etc, etc, join the BCS and forge links with other IT professionals, go back to Uni or further education and meet people there, there are lots of career development info at a collage. above all make it fun and learn things on the way.

Please any one come back with comments and please corect me if this is poor info but this was my view from recent research.

Re: IT in Canada
 

I hate to rain on your happy times but IT is dead right now, dead as Disco!

Re: IT in Canada
 

Not true.

Re: IT in Canada
 

I guess you must have some real special skills in IT then?

IT is dead everywhere - *dependent on subject*.

Some older system integration stuff has died and gone to hell - y`can`t even get a job even looking as far afield as Nigeria or South Korea....... some IT markets are still OK.

Still - very few people anywhere pay relocation to a new country. It was "do-able" at the height of the boom, when I could get H1-B status for the US (from the UK) but generally employers have to jump through all kinds of hoops for months to get a foreign employee. And there are plenty of unemployed IT professionals local to them at the moment.

WHAT ??????????? ;-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

You suggest it - but it`s not true.

Business threw money into IT projects with total utter greed until the bubble burst. So now what you have is a surplus of IT professionals - and - an unwillingness on the part of any employer to take staff on during *a recession*.

Many of those IT projects were Internet based flights of fancy from those professionals. They were based on flawed business models and unrealistic assumptions.

Which ones, specifically ? ;-)))

The ones where two idiots get $500k off a venture capitalist for an idea which won`t work - they then PAY IT PROFESSIONALS to do it (spot the distinction) - and surprise, it doesn`t work.

The dot com boom came about because venture capitalists and investors threw money around in a greedy attempt to capture a market which never would have existed. Think "third gen mobile phones" and the scramble for the licenses, where people paid more money than they`d ever make off it. Don`t blame it on the IT staff, blame it on the people who put together plans on the back of cigarette packets - all it was was a greed overdose.

whilst we are on the subject of IT:

Yahoo is taking on Google on the email front. Yahoo Mail has announced it's going to up it's free storage from 6 to 100 megabytes. Paid users will get virtually unlimited storage.

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/si...ley/8665054.htm

What does your desktop screenshot say about you? Is it as cool as the one below, show it to us then, in what is known as "SHOW US YOUR SCREENSHOT", or should that be knickers :-)

You're right...I.T. was already dying when I left the US in 2001 and the I.T. market in the UK has followed suit. I hear the media talking about how the British economy is doing so well and how unemployment is at its lowest level for 20 years...that's all fine, but WHERE ARE THE JOBS? I've been looking for another for a year and there are simply none to be had. My position is extremely specialized so there aren't many jobs to begin with, but there's almost no competition either. ;-) I haven't seen a listing for my field in this county in 14 months.

Absolutely right.

Sod it, Bored of IT anyway, I'm gonna buy a B&B by the lake :D

Hiya

I'm also in IT, and I've been looking at moving to Canada, but it seems as dead as the UK. Things here picked up a bit in march/april but they've gone quiet again now, probably for the summer "rest". I was hoping to come out on recce trip later this year, but doesn't look like I'll be able to now. I was in a bad car smash in Feb and still can't walk...but anyway. It seems Toronto is the place for all things IT, is this really the case, or just jobs in smaller towns elsewhere not making monster.ca or similar ?

Simon

PS Mick, here's my desktop, can you do the transparency thing ? ;)
http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Audio/Screenshot.jpg

Oh no Mick. Far too many icons on show there! I prefer a much more uncluttered desktop myself. ;)

Stepnek....The windows platform is for the missus to use, i usually use LINUX or UNIX, all three platforms are on the same computers round the house, and on the laptop. There are some programs that are not on display there

Sir Tainly....what transparency thing are you talking about? At least i know you are UNIX user, and like pearl jam Also try downloading winamp pro 5.03, its the best they've ever done, you are now able to play movies, and the interface is a lot better. I might have what you need to make it do more ( As a computer person, you know what i mean )

Mick,

The transparency on the terminal..means I can still see my background when working :) Btw it''s Fedora Linux, pretty cool and slightly nicer than Redhat. I'll try to d/l winamp for the windows box at home tonight. Yeah I'm playing Pearl Jam, trying to relive my adolescence or something ;)

Cheers

Simon

Oh that one, yes i can do that ! CD in my car at the moment has Fleetwood Mac's new album ( TUSK ), Aerosmith ( HONKIN ON BOBO ), Eric Clapton ( ME AND MR JOHNSON ), Prince ( MUSICOLOGY ) all mp3 full albums on one cd of course, and the quality is amazing, crystal clear !

For those trying to get into LINUX, try KNOPPIX. You don't have to install it, you can just run it from a bootable cd. If you like it, install SUSE !

Neat isn't it? I've only just got round to enabling it, bit of slack time at work. I'd vote for Knoppix too, it's a neat bit of software, use it at work for fixing broken windows boxes.

Simon

Funny you should mention this, I have a friend in London who is an IT person and he told me that the IT market has returned and that if you have PRINCE 2 qualification you should be able to get something with a good rate.

I have heard likewise too, that the IT sector is on the up, not only in the UK, but round Europe. I know most American firms are taking their businesses to Europe, and some are coming over from Asia too, and with the new EU members, i guess there are more opportunities, and contracts to be had.

My wife will like to go live in Europe at one point, but its not an issue now to move there. I guess she misses our grand parents in Greece or something.

Debian here...
 

My fave distro atm has to be Debian, the apt-get stuff is great, also the system can wholy be administered from the command line, something some distros have not got anymore.

I would be biased though, we run approx 700 Debian / Linux desktops nationwide. Works great for us, dead easy to push out apps.

Whats the markey like in Canada for Linux people? I am looking at either Alberta or SW Ontario.

Re: Debian here...
 

The market is good for LINUX here in southwestern ontario, once you can get your foot through the door, then its plain sailing from there.

We run linux on most of our desktops, but there are also a few NT workstations. With your linux knowledge coupled with networking and security, you will do well, if you can get the job.

I must stress though, do your own research, don't take my own word for it, i just work in this business, and know what the situation is at the moment.

once again...do your own search, if you need some contacts and ways to go about things, pm me !

Re: Debian here...
 

Cool sounds good, I have done networking for years and also security. I have just replaced all out Cisco PIX firewalls with OpenBSD and they works a treat.

We have family in St Thomas and really like the area. Sunny Ontario is right!!

Thanks for the info....

Re: Debian here...
 

Don't you just love OpenBSD, and the same goes for Openoffice which is free? St Thomas you say? Am going to be cheesy and give it a plug, we have been there a couple of times, and enjoy the "waterworks park", definitely worth a day out for those that haven't been.

Is sunny alright here, but not today :D

http://www.elgintourist.com/stthomas/

Re: Debian here...
 

OpenBSD is very cool, pf is so simple yet very powerfull. Have you checked out the new 3.5 release? They have introduced CARP which is basically an open source equivalent of Cisco's VRRP, very cool!!! My boss is very pleased with the new firewalls, open source and saving a wad on propriety firewalls. And its Canadian!

Yeah OpenOffice,org is cool too, we use OpenOffice.org exclusivly at work, all our Linux PC's use it and we are working on the Windows ones now. Its done a good deal to help Linux onto the corprate desktop. One of my mates is on the team translating OpenOffice.org into the Welsh, thats proving v-popular.