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CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Old Jan 9th 2009, 4:56 pm
  #76  
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Originally Posted by bodgerx
Yes. And that's exactly why I said "she thought". Calm down.
You beat me to it...I was just about to delete my post.
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Old Jan 9th 2009, 5:04 pm
  #77  
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
You misunderstood what I meant. The analogy I intended to use was this:

When paying into the UK system, it could be argued that one is paying a premium for when they are in the UK (like paying a premium to insurer A).

When relocating to Canada, using the same train of thought, one is then paying into the Canadian system (like paying a premium to insurer B).

When covered by insurer B, it would be ridiculous to argue that insurer A should cover you as you paid premiums for years to insurer A. That, to me, is the same as arguing that one paid into the English system for years and are therefore entitled to be covered by that system having left England.

My point actually was that Canadians have a sense of entitlement as well as the Brits - kinda universal attitude of wanting rights without the responsibilities.
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Old Jan 9th 2009, 5:12 pm
  #78  
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

You misunderstood what I meant. The analogy I intended to use was this:

When paying into the UK system, it could be argued that one is paying a premium for when they are in the UK (like paying a premium to insurer A).

When relocating to Canada, using the same train of thought, one is then paying into the Canadian system (like paying a premium to insurer B).

When covered by insurer B, it would be ridiculous to argue that insurer A should cover you as you paid premiums for years to insurer A. That, to me, is the same as arguing that one paid into the English system for years and are therefore entitled to be covered by that system having left England.
What about people who are paying into the Canadian system who are entitled to nowt here either?!

My visa here in Canada supposedly prevents me from using OHIP, and definitely from getting EI etc. Though I've not tried to register for my OHIP card yet so I'm not sure how well it's policed.

There was a similar proviso on the mrs' two year working holiday visa when she entered the UK, 'No recourse to Public Funds' but whether she was in England, Scotland, n. Ireland or Eire, she had free treatment under the NHS thanks to her NI card. Same happened years ago in Italy after she produced her Canadian passport (emergency treatment that time tho.) Whereas when I recently produced myself at a TO hospital in need of treatment I was charged, they didn't even trust me to pay afterwards, they wouldn't see me without a hospital cashier's receipt

My points being -
1: If the governments of the two countries are willing to do their taxpayers out of a service that everyone else qualifies for, by virtue of their citizenship, why should it not work both ways? Morally I mean...

and 2: There seems, in my experience, to be a marked difference in philosophy between Western European and N. American 'free' healthcare. If there are people in the EU hunting down people who should have paid, their departments certainly aren't a budget priority.
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Old Jan 9th 2009, 5:15 pm
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Originally Posted by nooka
You mean like babies in intensive care that don't make it, or are severely disabled for the rest of their lives? An incredibly expensive (although small) group btw
I had in mind people who haven't worked and won't....for whatever reason. Unfortunately, not such a small group.
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Old Jan 9th 2009, 5:16 pm
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Sad really. Six months in the US (where we paid more tax on my husband's income incidentally than in the UK) paying for health insurance that didn't even cover the one consultation he had ($1500), or the prescription fees for the medicine he needed ($180) followed by a month uninsured, where I couldn't see a GP for the horrible cough I had for four weeks, really brought home to me what happens if you don't have a national system. Talking to my American friends it quickly became clear that their health, the costs of insurance and medical bills is a real and permanent worry. Sure the NHS doesn't always get it right, there is a lot of waiting, admin cock ups and sometimes you can't get what you want (this is not an issue confined to the NHS though), but not having to worry about sudden and unexpected bills, or losing coverage when you get laid off, or when your company decides to scrap it's insurance, is a huge luxury IMO. If we choose to walk away from it by emigrating, then we should not think we can just help ourselves when we return on holiday.
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Old Jan 9th 2009, 5:20 pm
  #81  
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Originally Posted by BristolUK
I had in mind people who haven't worked and won't....for whatever reason. Unfortunately, not such a small group.
They might not pay income tax, but they will still be paying VAT (generally speaking the poorer you are the higher a proportion of tax you pay on your income, whether that income comes from earnings or benefits).

I'm not sure that the numbers of people that never work through choice (as opposed to disability/illness) are that high to be honest. I just think they get a lot of media attention.
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Old Jan 9th 2009, 7:47 pm
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Originally Posted by windward
What about people who are paying into the Canadian system who are entitled to nowt here either?!

My visa here in Canada supposedly prevents me from using OHIP, and definitely from getting EI etc. Though I've not tried to register for my OHIP card yet so I'm not sure how well it's policed.

There was a similar proviso on the mrs' two year working holiday visa when she entered the UK, 'No recourse to Public Funds' but whether she was in England, Scotland, n. Ireland or Eire, she had free treatment under the NHS thanks to her NI card. Same happened years ago in Italy after she produced her Canadian passport (emergency treatment that time tho.) Whereas when I recently produced myself at a TO hospital in need of treatment I was charged, they didn't even trust me to pay afterwards, they wouldn't see me without a hospital cashier's receipt

My points being -
1: If the governments of the two countries are willing to do their taxpayers out of a service that everyone else qualifies for, by virtue of their citizenship, why should it not work both ways? Morally I mean...

and 2: There seems, in my experience, to be a marked difference in philosophy between Western European and N. American 'free' healthcare. If there are people in the EU hunting down people who should have paid, their departments certainly aren't a budget priority.
There are indeed philosophical differences between the systems. When I broke my arm and jaw on holiday in Utah I didn't get any treatment at all (not even a bandage or assessment) before they established that I was insured. I am not sure what would have happened if I had not been insured, and the morning after I had my operation I had to make a payment on my credit card before they let me go.

Regarding chasing up people who shouldn't be getting free care, I suspect that this will become more of a focus in the next few years, at least in the UK, partly because the way that payment systems have changed so that charging for most treatments is on the basis of individuals (ie if a hospital treats a patient, a set fee is charged to the PCT where that patient resides, via their GP code) in the past all contracts were on a block basis (PCT and hospital negotiate a set amount for the year, fore all services provided by that hospital) and partly because the system will have a lot less cash, so money saving will be more of an issue (although bering in mind you have to staff such units, which has cost implications too).

I'm not totally sure what you mean by your first point. Governments are entitled to exclude people if they wish, and I guess you accept that when you apply for the visa. However are you sure it didn't mean that your wife couldn't claim any benefits, rather than receive services?
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Old Jan 10th 2009, 6:52 pm
  #83  
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Originally Posted by nooka
There are indeed philosophical differences between the systems. When I broke my arm and jaw on holiday in Utah I didn't get any treatment at all (not even a bandage or assessment) before they established that I was insured. I am not sure what would have happened if I had not been insured, and the morning after I had my operation I had to make a payment on my credit card before they let me go.

I'm not totally sure what you mean by your first point. Governments are entitled to exclude people if they wish, and I guess you accept that when you apply for the visa. However are you sure it didn't mean that your wife couldn't claim any benefits, rather than receive services?
You're right, governments can do whatever they want, but I mean how can it be considered unethical to get treatment in the UK as a non-resident british citizen because you don't put into the system any longer, yet be denied access to Canadian healthcare even though you 'do' pay the same as everyone else?

edit: Oh, and you're probably right about the benefits thing too, the mrs was a resident of the UK and therefore entitled to free NHS treatment I guess.. I'm not sure which rule took precedence.

It's not something that bothers me, just thought I'd throw it out there!
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Old Jan 10th 2009, 8:00 pm
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Originally Posted by windward
...how can it be considered unethical to get treatment in the UK as a non-resident british citizen because you don't put into the system any longer, yet be denied access to Canadian healthcare even though you 'do' pay the same as everyone else?
Am I missing something? If one isn't resident in the UK because one is resident in Canada why would there be a denial of healthcare in Canada? Other than that short qualifying period in some provinces of course.
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Old Jan 10th 2009, 9:04 pm
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Into the mix....

When I went back to the Uk last May with a few people from work (for work) one fell ill. Went to the hospital with abdominal pains, got some rennies (or similar) and was sent home. He has a strong atlantic Canada accent was never asked anything about payment insurance etc. He went back about 12 hrs later as the pain had got worse, tuned out he needed his appendix out, in to surgery slice dice yank out it came, because of an issue (unsure what) spent three days in hospital (could be the norm for all I know). He then left and spent a few days at the hotel before flying back to Canada. At no point did any one make any attempt to take insurance details or paymnet from him. As he was with work he was insuared up to the eyeballs so it wouldnt have been a issue. The only reason he didnt was because he is young, had never been in hospital before and had never actually been out of Canada before and didnt know.

Its not really a standard procedure acorss the NHS to get payment from those outwith UK if no one is telling people they need to pay.
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Old Jan 10th 2009, 9:12 pm
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Originally Posted by Tommyboy17
Into the mix....

When I went back to the Uk last May with a few people from work (for work) one fell ill. Went to the hospital with abdominal pains, got some rennies (or similar) and was sent home. He has a strong atlantic Canada accent was never asked anything about payment insurance etc. He went back about 12 hrs later as the pain had got worse, tuned out he needed his appendix out, in to surgery slice dice yank out it came, because of an issue (unsure what) spent three days in hospital (could be the norm for all I know). He then left and spent a few days at the hotel before flying back to Canada. At no point did any one make any attempt to take insurance details or paymnet from him. As he was with work he was insuared up to the eyeballs so it wouldnt have been a issue. The only reason he didnt was because he is young, had never been in hospital before and had never actually been out of Canada before and didnt know.

Its not really a standard procedure acorss the NHS to get payment from those outwith UK if no one is telling people they need to pay.
...and yet, Almost Canadian would have him down as a Candy stealing cheat.
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Old Jan 10th 2009, 9:47 pm
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Originally Posted by Tommyboy17
Into the mix....

When I went back to the Uk last May with a few people from work (for work) one fell ill. Went to the hospital with abdominal pains, got some rennies (or similar) and was sent home. He has a strong atlantic Canada accent was never asked anything about payment insurance etc. He went back about 12 hrs later as the pain had got worse, tuned out he needed his appendix out, in to surgery slice dice yank out it came, because of an issue (unsure what) spent three days in hospital (could be the norm for all I know). He then left and spent a few days at the hotel before flying back to Canada. At no point did any one make any attempt to take insurance details or paymnet from him. As he was with work he was insuared up to the eyeballs so it wouldnt have been a issue. The only reason he didnt was because he is young, had never been in hospital before and had never actually been out of Canada before and didnt know.
Its not really a standard procedure acorss the NHS to get payment from those outwith UK if no one is telling people they need to pay.
If he was insured up to the eyeballs or carried no insurance at all, he had at least a moral obligation to proffer payment.
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Old Jan 10th 2009, 10:03 pm
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Originally Posted by brianscottie43
If he was insured up to the eyeballs or carried no insurance at all, he had at least a moral obligation to proffer payment.

Yeah, you're not getting my point.

He didnt know.

Its not really a moral issue is it?
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Old Jan 10th 2009, 10:36 pm
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Originally Posted by Tommyboy17
Into the mix....

When I went back to the Uk last May with a few people from work (for work) one fell ill. Went to the hospital with abdominal pains, got some rennies (or similar) and was sent home. He has a strong atlantic Canada accent was never asked anything about payment insurance etc. He went back about 12 hrs later as the pain had got worse, tuned out he needed his appendix out, in to surgery slice dice yank out it came, because of an issue (unsure what) spent three days in hospital (could be the norm for all I know). He then left and spent a few days at the hotel before flying back to Canada. At no point did any one make any attempt to take insurance details or paymnet from him. As he was with work he was insuared up to the eyeballs so it wouldnt have been a issue. The only reason he didnt was because he is young, had never been in hospital before and had never actually been out of Canada before and didnt know.

Its not really a standard procedure acorss the NHS to get payment from those outwith UK if no one is telling people they need to pay.
IMO everyone should be able to get emergency healthcare...no matter where they are...without having to pay unless they have insurance. As Brits we have grown up with healthcare that's available to all...I therefore think it is a basic human right.
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Old Jan 10th 2009, 10:47 pm
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Default Re: CAN BRITS GET DENTAL,OPTICAL TREATMENT WHEN VISITING UK

Originally Posted by bodgerx
...and yet, Almost Canadian would have him down as a Candy stealing cheat.
But there is a difference between an emergency, and someone planning to use the NHS when they are not entitled to do so. This young man should have told the hospital he was insured, so they could have claimed the costs back off his insurance company, but he was clearly quite naive. If it was a few years ago, and the hospital was not one with a large international private practice (as was the case in the hospital where I worked) then I'm not surprised they didn't ask.

I agree with JerseyGirl, I don't understand how any country can claim to be civilized, and yet deny people basic health care.
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