cov-canuck

Hi all,

I was hoping some of the experts here could offer up some advice for a situation my brother has found himself in (and I'll preface by saying some of this is his own fault).

Long story short - everyone in my family was born in Canada. In 1990, we emigrated to England, and all had stamps in our passports for "Indefinite leave to remain". My little brother was 8 when we emigrated.

My brothers and I received National Insurance cards/numbers when we turned 16, and all of us started work part time while being educated in England, through university, and into full-time jobs.

Over the years, my older brother and I decided to emigrate back to Canada. I obtained British citizenship and am married to a British guy. My little brother married a British girl in 2005, and has never left England (he's still there), but never obtained citizenship (it never posed any problems for him).

My brother recently completed a law degree, worked for a year as a paralegal, and was offered a contract with a firm in Oxford. He and his wife bought a house and moved, he showed up on his first day and was asked by HR to present his work permit. He was confused, and showed them his original Canadian passport with the "Indefinite leave to remain" stamp. They informed him that the laws had changed within the last 12 months and this was no longer proof that he could work in the UK, and as such his contract may be null and void!

He went into office the following day and spoke to one of the lawyers, who told him that there shouldn't be a problem with the evidence he has, so he's waiting to find out who is right - the lawyer or the HR department, and he's wondering if he's just screwed up his life by relocating, buying a house, etc.

Personally speaking (and I am no expert), I would have thought that if you have a National Insurance number/card, that this is your proof that you are legally allowed to work in the UK (since it wouldn't be issued if you weren't!).

I have also advised him to get his application in for British citizenship ASAP (I'm not sure what the wait times are - when I applied back in 2005 it took 4 months). I'm reserving the right to call him a moron for not doing it sooner until his life isn't falling apart around his ears.

Does anyone have any advice on who is right, or what he can do? My brother is a really intelligent guy, but a little oblivious when it comes to things like this. All he knows is that his future, which was solid, is now hanging by a thread, and he's devastated.

Elaine B.

hi there

I'm no expert but my OH moved to the UK age 14 and has had ILR ever since (he never got around to applying for British Citizenship either) the only proof of this he has is a stamp in his expired Canadian passport and it's never been a problem for him getting a job etc. Hopefully one of the experts will be along soon to help

iaink

That sucks doesnt it!

Id go with a lawyers advice (as long as its a lawyer in the relevent area) over the HR folks any day of the week and twice on Monday.

Even if the law did change, the grace periods are usually pretty long, as lets face it, no one pays attention to this stuff unless they are a lawyer.

Could be the law did change, but I doubt if it would be drafted to include those in the country before that point, so I expect its all a misunderstanding.


You would have thought that HR at a law firm would check with their own lawyers though, wouldnt you?

Anyway, none of that answers the questions, but good luck to him anyway

sheadboy

you don't need an additional work VISA, his VISA is identical to my wife's.

Cdnshaz

His ILR IS HIS PERMISSION to stay in UK, same as in my cdn passport...the HR department must have had a new girl in, as she as no idea what she is on about..

Where I work we also hire non brits, we only look at their passport to see what type of visa they are on...no work permit necessary.....

lifeisajourney

Hi,

Does sound like the HR department doesn't have a clue what they're on about. What do they not understand by the term "indefinite leave to remain"?!

He'll be fine once they uncross their wires.

JonboyE

Which sounds exactly like an HR department.

lifeisajourney

As a previous HR officer myself, can I just say that they're not all complete idiots! But this one obviously has gone into work permit/illegal immigration overdrive and should come to his/her senses soon.

The way I see it, a stamp in the passport that says "indefinite leave to remain" is equivalent to saying "come in and do what you like". Granted he should have applied for British Citizenship years ago but it really shouldn't be becoming the problem that it is.

He should call the UK Border Agency himself and politely ask if they'll fax him a letter saying he can work without any restrictions.

Ozzidoc

Nope. This is not proof of being being allowed to work in the UK.

eg, There are numerous people who come to the UK on working holiday visas who are issued with a NI no & card. They have permission to work for a set (restricted) time, but the NI no is theirs for life.

(As a former HR manager I agree with the poster on here who work/ed in HR - there are some right fruitloops in HR - as anywhere - which makes demonstrating our knowledge, ability and experience difficult at times.)

bewillow

The HR department can call the UKBA for more information if they do not understand the rules. http://ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/employ...ployersupport/

englishrose1

I cant believe what I am reading here. HR have got it wrong I know I have a team of over 50 staff and if you hve ILR then you are good to go. Sounds like a fat compensation will soon be on its way to you. Make sure you challenge this. THe only legislation requirement is we have to check an applicant has a right to work in the UK which you do. I hope they got some cash. The last case I read like this, were HR made such a crazy mistake they got over 50K from a employment tribunal. Discrimination springs to my mind.

Almost Canadian

What utter tripe. They have asked him to proof he is eligible to work in England. The burden is on him. Their defence to any Employment Tribunal proceedings would be that they do not wish to employ somebody illegally, nothing to do with discrimination.

To the OP. Speak to someone who is an immigration official in the UK and ask them for the legal authority which demonstrates whether you are legally entitled to work or not, failing that, I would have thought he would be able to research the issue himself - job done

JAJ

Perhaps that's the case if his ILR is stamped in an old passport:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/si...df?view=Binary

(see page 68).

His ILR still exists, however he may be without valid proof of it.

But why doesn't he make his life simpler and become a British citizen?

In itself, that's not enough because one's previous immigration status may have expired. But with a valid ILR stamp, it should be acceptable if the ILR stamp is in a valid passport.

If his ILR is stamped in an expired passport (perhaps?) then he has to get a new stamp. And a word of warning - people have sent off their passports with ILR stamps to the Home Office, passports have been lost, and then the Home Office cannot find any record of their status.

Hariboy

Hi,

I'm a former Presenting Officer. Those are the guys the represent the UK government at immigration appeal hearings. As such, at least until September 2008, I had a pretty wide knowledge of most things UK immigration related.

From what I have read the problem lies entirely with your brother's HR department.

The UK government has changed/tightened a number of areas in recent years (that is an ongoing process, some changes just get more attention), including changes to encourage immigrants to become citizens, rather than hanging on to ILR.

However, when I last checked (which would be September 08) - ILR = right to work (subject to child labour laws and the like).
Your parents will probably somewhere have a letter naming you and your brother as having ILR (probably on the same letter as them as you were under 18 at the time). IT depends on the exact process of how you got there though.

If your brother has maintained a valid Canadian passport then he should be able to clear things up.
The UK government do not normally transfer stamps from one passport to the next (and they charge a fair bit when they do).

Sounds to me like your brother should gather up a bit of research from the UKBA (lots on the net, not always the easiest to find) and ask the HR department to look again.

It would probably make sense for your brother to get citizenship, but more because he can hold dual citizenship and get the best of both worlds than for any other reason (it is not necessity otherwise every American immigrant to the UK would have big decisions to make).

One pointer on your message though. An NI card/number is not entitlement to work and carries no weight in a situation like this.

Hope he gets things worked out.

S

Yogi-Bear

Hi Cov,

Well like most on here, I'm no expert either. But I do like to think that we've not lost common sense altogether.

I'd be inclined to listen to the lawyer at the office as this does all seem a little riddiculous and it really does sound like the HR hasn't got a clue!

There surely has to be a simple oversight here. I mean, he's hardly a national threat to the country is he?

Sounds like typical "Jobsworth" red-tape to me.

It may be a rough ride until you get the right person who knows exactly what they're talking about here. At the moment, that is the lawyer at the office.

Hope it all goes well

Y