Citizenship

Old Dec 13th 2019, 3:40 pm
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Hi, Rachael here, I moved to the netherlands to be with my dutch partner, due to his security job he didn’t want to move to my country the uk. I’ve lived here about 2 years and with Brexit and Borris winning, i haven’t been able to get any answers i’m really looking for! This may be rude but i don’t plan on learning dutch especially as i’m not going to rush it. It’s a very hard language to learn and i just always forget words every time i learn them haha. I’m worried as after another 3 years of living here i’m going to have to learn dutch? this is the question i want answered because i don’t want to waist anymore time being in this country if it means i can only stay if i learn dutch, eventually i will have to take a test to become a permeant residence least that’s what i’ve been told. i will also probably have to give up my British citizenship which i also don’t want to do. I’ve gave up a lot to be with the person i love and now i’m in the most horrible situation. My question is will i really have to learn dutch to be able to live in this country? I don’t want to move back home as i still love my partner but it’s a hard decision. thank you for readying and any advice yous can give me!
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Old Dec 14th 2019, 7:25 am
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Default Re: Citizenship

Assuming you are registered here, you should already have the temporary residence permit which they issued to us all about a year or more ago ( a letter from the IND). This website will tell you more about your options. https://ind.nl/en/Pages/Brexit.aspx
Only you know your own circumstances regarding which of the permits you can apply for. eg. If you're working/independent, then as former EU citizens, the Dutch government has been generous in saying that we don't need the language element for our 5 year Perm residence permit.
As far as I know, it's only if you want Dutch citizenship/passport that you'd be forced to take the language exams, and there are certain exemptions then too (but they involve retirement age, so probably not an option for you just yet)?
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Old Dec 14th 2019, 7:31 am
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Thank you Red! Yeah i’m all registered and have my temporary residence permit, thank you for telling me this i had no idea of this information, i have an appointment next week with the British embassy to find out everything i really need to know, Thank you i really appreciate it!
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Old Dec 14th 2019, 8:08 am
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Default Re: Citizenship

Originally Posted by Rachiee View Post
Hi, Rachael here, I moved to the netherlands to be with my dutch partner, due to his security job he didn’t want to move to my country the uk. I’ve lived here about 2 years and with Brexit and Borris winning, i haven’t been able to get any answers i’m really looking for! This may be rude but i don’t plan on learning dutch especially as i’m not going to rush it. It’s a very hard language to learn and i just always forget words every time i learn them haha. I’m worried as after another 3 years of living here i’m going to have to learn dutch? this is the question i want answered because i don’t want to waist anymore time being in this country if it means i can only stay if i learn dutch, eventually i will have to take a test to become a permeant residence least that’s what i’ve been told. i will also probably have to give up my British citizenship which i also don’t want to do. I’ve gave up a lot to be with the person i love and now i’m in the most horrible situation. My question is will i really have to learn dutch to be able to live in this country? I don’t want to move back home as i still love my partner but it’s a hard decision. thank you for readying and any advice yous can give me!
Everyone to his/her own, but as you're living with a Dutch national, I'm amazed that you haven't already reached a reasonable basic level with the language. Admittedly it's not the easiest to learn, but you have the two prime elements to faciliate learning that many do not: (i) you are living there, and (ii) your partner is Dutch. A definite win-win situation to not only learn, but indeed to master a second language.

I know from experience that there is no easier way to pick up a language than living with a person who fluently speaks the second language. You should insist that your partner speaks to you as frequently as possible and quite slowly, and watch local tv - especially the news. And read. Regularly. Things of interest like the local tv times, kids comic strips etc. are just a few to get you motivated. Within a very short time you'll find yourself recognizing key words, and together with an amount of self-study time you'll find yourself starting to 'think' in your new language, and not translating a newly heard word back into English to comprehend. I recall the day I started to 'think' in French, it was like flicking a switch and a light suddenly came on!

Don't hang around with too many solely English-speaking people, meet as many locals as possible and get them speaking slowly to you. Another good tip is to get some English friends who speak reasonable Dutch, to speak to you only in that language. That helped me enormously with two additional languages, (and fwiw I was rubbish with languages at school).
It appears that you have lost a lot of ground linguistically over the last two years, especially living there. In that period you should really be up to a reasonable level.
Convince yourself that you can and will learn Dutch, and you'll succeed.
Pls post back in 1-2 years time proving that the above can actually work, but you have to put your mind and effort into it.

Last edited by Tweedpipe; Dec 14th 2019 at 9:59 am.
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Old Dec 14th 2019, 9:42 am
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Default Re: Citizenship

I just found this post from British in Europe (they are on Facebook, as are British in Netherlands), which is a bit generic, but hopefully will calm the nerves of those who are still jittery over their rights.



A BIT OF CLARIFICATION ABOUT THE WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT

Morning everyone. I'm picking up in BiE and around our various country groups that there's a bit of confusion about the Withdrawal Agreement and what happens to it if there should be no trade agreement by the end of the transition period. So here's a quick clarification.

1. Given the large Tory majority, it's almost certain that the current Withdrawal Agreement (WA) will be passed by the UK parliament in January, or possibly even sooner. It then has to be ratified by the European Parliament, but it's pretty much a given that the UK will leave the EU on 31 January 2020 and the WA will come into force then.

2. The citizens' rights chapter of the WA remains largely unchanged from the original Theresa May version, and it's this that will cover the future rights of British people who are legally resident in an EU27 country on the last day of the transition period. It's EU wide, and although each EU27 country will institute its own procedures for residence cards etc, they cannot alter the provisions of the WA.

3. Most of our rights remain unchanged until the end of the transition period. This includes freedom of movement, so it will still be possible to move from the UK to the EU during that period. We do however lose the right to stand and vote in local and European elections on Brexit day.

4. The media has been talking for some time about the possibility of 'no deal' at the end of transition - ie if there is no trade agreement and the UK ends up crashing out of the EU on WTO terms. However - and this is important - the Withdrawal Agreement would remain in place as an international treaty and the rights that it includes for us would remain covered. They cannot be removed even in the absence of a trade agreement. Once the Withdrawal Agreement is in force, we will be covered by it for our lifetimes whatever happens with future negotiations and would not default to the no deal plans put in place by our host countries. So please don't think that the rights it covers for us are temporary - they're not and will cover you for your lifetime.

If you want a quick brush up on exactly what the WA does (and doesn't) cover, have a look at this article I wrote recently for France Rights - it's equally applicable whatever your country. https://www.francerights.info/…/whats-big-deal-part-1-what-…

And if you want to read the WA itself, it's here: http://bit.ly/2RQkaPB



Incidentally, I only started to pick up the language when I gave up hope of ever doing so. Putting pressure on yourself is the worst thing you can do, so don't Like babies, we all develop at different rates, unlike babies, we aren't sponges for language learning. And even if you do go down the citizenship route, the level of language you need isn't that high (my friend from the US is almost 60 and she passed it after many years - they don't kick you out for failing the exams, but they don't tell people this - remember they are in the EU, and you are guaranteed the right to a family life)
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Old Dec 14th 2019, 2:23 pm
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Originally Posted by Tweedpipe View Post
Everyone to his/her own, but as you're living with a Dutch national, I'm amazed that you haven't already reached a reasonable basic level with the language. Admittedly it's not the easiest to learn, but you have the two prime elements to faciliate learning that many do not: (i) you are living there, and (ii) your partner is Dutch. A definite win-win situation to not only learn, but indeed to master a second language.

I know from experience that there is no easier way to pick up a language than living with a person who fluently speaks the second language. You should insist that your partner speaks to you as frequently as possible and quite slowly, and watch local tv - especially the news. And read. Regularly. Things of interest like the local tv times, kids comic strips etc. are just a few to get you motivated. Within a very short time you'll find yourself recognizing key words, and together with an amount of self-study time you'll find yourself starting to 'think' in your new language, and not translating a newly heard word back into English to comprehend. I recall the day I started to 'think' in French, it was like flicking a switch and a light suddenly came on!

Don't hang around with too many solely English-speaking people, meet as many locals as possible and get them speaking slowly to you. Another good tip is to get some English friends who speak reasonable Dutch, to speak to you only in that language. That helped me enormously with two additional languages, (and fwiw I was rubbish with languages at school).
It appears that you have lost a lot of ground linguistically over the last two years, especially living there. In that period you should really be up to a reasonable level.
Convince yourself that you can and will learn Dutch, and you'll succeed.
Pls post back in 1-2 years time proving that the above can actually work, but you have to put your mind and effort into it.
Heyah! sorry i’ve been at work! Yeah i know i’m not pleased with myself that i haven’t learnt the language yet but within the 2 years i’ve lived here i’ve also went back and forth from the uk a lot so i haven’t had the chance to fully put all my effort and time into learning the language. i’m going to try and start learning it now as it would be easier for my job too. However with my partner he loves speaking english i’ve asked him multiple times if he would talk to me in dutch or say the english word then the dutch word however he isn’t interested. he says i don’t need to learn dutch to live here as everyone speaks english. which isn’t exactly true, yeah in amsterdam you will find them all speaking english even dutch nationals however outside the city i live in zeist. Maybe my partner doesn’t want me to learn it as i know what he would say? 😂 i have a few apps that i’m currently using and with what i’ve learned is that i can read dutch, the words and sentences i’ve learned but can’t pronounce or speak it but i’m hopefull i will learn but i also feel like i can’t learn every single word but i’ll keep trying. i have a few friends that are english who are studying here only so they aren’t willing to learn dutch as they won’t stay here. And the people i work with are a lot older than me so they aren’t my friends. so i have no one to help but my partner which means i’m going to have to ask him again, he gets annoyed repeating words n sentences i don’t think he has the patience to teach me that’s just the way he is i guess. It’s really cool to know that you can speak french! congrats, i hope i’ll be able to talk dutch properly one day! Thank you for being kind and taking your time to give me some advice! i’ll deffo try watching local TV too! i’ll keep you updated thanks!
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Old Dec 14th 2019, 2:50 pm
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Originally Posted by Red_Wine_Fairy View Post
I just found this post from British in Europe (they are on Facebook, as are British in Netherlands), which is a bit generic, but hopefully will calm the nerves of those who are still jittery over their rights.



A BIT OF CLARIFICATION ABOUT THE WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT

Morning everyone. I'm picking up in BiE and around our various country groups that there's a bit of confusion about the Withdrawal Agreement and what happens to it if there should be no trade agreement by the end of the transition period. So here's a quick clarification.

1. Given the large Tory majority, it's almost certain that the current Withdrawal Agreement (WA) will be passed by the UK parliament in January, or possibly even sooner. It then has to be ratified by the European Parliament, but it's pretty much a given that the UK will leave the EU on 31 January 2020 and the WA will come into force then.

2. The citizens' rights chapter of the WA remains largely unchanged from the original Theresa May version, and it's this that will cover the future rights of British people who are legally resident in an EU27 country on the last day of the transition period. It's EU wide, and although each EU27 country will institute its own procedures for residence cards etc, they cannot alter the provisions of the WA.

3. Most of our rights remain unchanged until the end of the transition period. This includes freedom of movement, so it will still be possible to move from the UK to the EU during that period. We do however lose the right to stand and vote in local and European elections on Brexit day.

4. The media has been talking for some time about the possibility of 'no deal' at the end of transition - ie if there is no trade agreement and the UK ends up crashing out of the EU on WTO terms. However - and this is important - the Withdrawal Agreement would remain in place as an international treaty and the rights that it includes for us would remain covered. They cannot be removed even in the absence of a trade agreement. Once the Withdrawal Agreement is in force, we will be covered by it for our lifetimes whatever happens with future negotiations and would not default to the no deal plans put in place by our host countries. So please don't think that the rights it covers for us are temporary - they're not and will cover you for your lifetime.

If you want a quick brush up on exactly what the WA does (and doesn't) cover, have a look at this article I wrote recently for France Rights - it's equally applicable whatever your country.
Incidentally, I only started to pick up the language when I gave up hope of ever doing so. Putting pressure on yourself is the worst thing you can do, so don't Like babies, we all develop at different rates, unlike babies, we aren't sponges for language learning. And even if you do go down the citizenship route, the level of language you need isn't that high (my friend from the US is almost 60 and she passed it after many years - they don't kick you out for failing the exams, but they don't tell people this - remember they are in the EU, and you are guaranteed the right to a family life)
Hi Red! Yeah i’m also following the British ambasy on facebook and i have seen that withdrawal agreement! thank you! I’m going to try and learn dutch i’ll take it slow i have 2 apps currently and they’re helping me, i can look at words or sentences and i know what they mean but i can’t speak or pronounce it yet, i’ll also get my partner to help me along the way, I don’t wish to take the citizenship route as it will mean giving up my british citizenship but i have my residence permit but after 5 years you automatically become a dutch citizen so therefor they will make my give up my british, i have an appointment next week to go through everything i need to know to continue to live here in the future. I still visit home a lot i have a lot of family and i don’t want to miss out on my parents and family’s lives. I want to be able to choose between the 2 country’s i know that’s a lot to ask for but they’re both my homes. I want to be there when my parents are older ect. i’m only 21 and i’ve gave up a lot for this boy i don’t want to give up anymore we could break up when i’m 25 or 30 or older it’s so unpredictable what will happen i guess i’m just scared i want to know i have a safety net, if i stay here 3 more years i’ll become a dutch citizen so i would have to give up my British as they don’t really allow duel nationally but that’s what i hope to get or something close? if i’d lose it and return to the uk i will have to answer daft questions but i’m sure i’d become British again and welcomed back home as i just left my partner not a better life or anything, I’m really glad you learned the language congrats! and i’m happy for your friend too! 😊 i hope i’m able to with time i’ll get there, i guess i’m just worried about the future more than anything really! thank you so much red for reading and being so kind 😊x
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Old Dec 14th 2019, 4:08 pm
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Default Re: Citizenship

Noooo. You don't automatically become a Dutch citizen - only if you apply to become one! If it was automatic, I would have been Dutch for the last 7 years (if only!). I think you are overthinking this (please don't take that the wrong way, we are all stressed by Thursday's development).

I also have my own thoughts about this not allowing dual nationality thing. The Dutch government recently voted to allow Dutch nationals living in the UK the right to dual nationality. Let them pass that into Dutch law, then after that, take them the the EU court as being discriminatory. Don't underestimate the lawyers and expat groups - both UKinNL and NLinUK together - who are working hard on this You will learn that the Dutch love their polder model - sitting around a table contemplating problems. They did it when Brexit was announced and were the first of the EU countries to have a plan for every scenario. They will do it again when they realise that the sky doesn't fall down just because someone has two nationalities.

And please don't overestimate my Dutch level. I am nowhere near fluent, and doubt I ever will be, working in Amsterdam. I just have good neighbours now who won't speak English to me, colleagues who I can only converse with on a 50:50 basis, and find that a bottle of wine increases my language skills by 300% (or is it that I lose self-consciousness and don't care if I make errors?) not that I am encouraging the taking of alcohol to learn a language, but it doesn't hurt every now and then
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Old Dec 14th 2019, 4:12 pm
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btw, this is one I was advised to use by my taal-coach (Dutch volunteers who speak Dutch to you! Your gemeente would have details of local volunteers happy to fit with your schedule for one hour a week. Mine was a lovely retiree bank clerk who wanted to keep busy in the community after he retired)

https://oefenen.nl/programma/serie/taalklas
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Old Dec 14th 2019, 4:37 pm
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[QUOTE=Red_Wine_Fairy;12778836]btw, this is one I was advised to use by my taal-coach (Dutch volunteers who speak Dutch to you! Your gemeente would have details of local volunteers happy to fit with your schedule for one hour a week. Mine was a lovely retiree bank clerk who wanted to keep busy in the community after he retired)

Ah really i did not know that! i thought you automatically became one after 5 years! well that’s nice to know yeah i’ve defiantly been overthinking it all haha 🙈😂 ah that’s good to know, i seen that dutch get duel in the UK so i hope they bring that here too, i guess time will tell! Aww bless you well it’s still great that you’re learning! it’s definitely a hard language to learn but you’ll get there in the end and hopefully i do as well! Yeah i’ve heard about volunteers teaching you dutch i think i’m going to look into that and find someone local that can hopefully help the process and push me to learn it also! My colleges at work don’t even know english! there’s only 1 person that speaks english and she doesn’t work much, so i never have an idea what my colleges or boss actually says, google translate does not help neither as it’s not always actuate🙈😂 and yeah i’ll try with a vodka and coke haha Thank you!! 😁
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Old Dec 15th 2019, 3:18 pm
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Default Re: Citizenship

Exemptions where you will not be asked to renounce your nationality

Some exemptions for renunciation of nationality are checked by the municipality and the IND. You do not have to sign a declaration that you are willing to renounce your nationality. This applies in the following situations:

You are married to a Dutch citizen. Or are the registered partner of a Dutch citizen.

https://ind.nl/en/Pages/Renouncing-y...tionality.aspx
If you are married to a Dutch national, you may keep your own nationality. The same applies in the case of a registered partnership.
https://www.government.nl/topics/dut...al-nationality
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Old Dec 15th 2019, 3:32 pm
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Originally Posted by Siouxie View Post
Exemptions where you will not be asked to renounce your nationality

Some exemptions for renunciation of nationality are checked by the municipality and the IND. You do not have to sign a declaration that you are willing to renounce your nationality. This applies in the following situations:

You are married to a Dutch citizen. Or are the registered partner of a Dutch citizen.

https://ind.nl/en/Pages/Renouncing-y...tionality.aspx
If you are married to a Dutch national, you may keep your own nationality. The same applies in the case of a registered partnership.
https://www.government.nl/topics/dut...al-nationality
Thanks Siouxie! So this means I need to get my partner to propose to me 🤣
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Old Dec 15th 2019, 9:40 pm
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Hey Guys, with this transaction period in effect until Dec 2020 does that mean i can travel to the UK with my pets still? as once we leave EU they will need new blood tests and things and i can’t visit the UK as my pet ferret is on medication and i need to take him with me i’m hoping the same rules as the eu till apply now until 2020?
thanks!
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Old Dec 16th 2019, 7:53 am
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Originally Posted by Rachiee View Post
Hey Guys, with this transaction period in effect until Dec 2020 does that mean i can travel to the UK with my pets still? as once we leave EU they will need new blood tests and things and i can’t visit the UK as my pet ferret is on medication and i need to take him with me i’m hoping the same rules as the eu till apply now until 2020?
thanks!
HTH
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pet-trav...brexit#history
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