The Yes No vote

Old Oct 12th 2017, 6:36 am
  #211  
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Your arguments would have deeper penetration if they actually had substance.
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Old Oct 12th 2017, 7:02 am
  #212  
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
How very wrong.
Why? You address a new topic with your next bit.

Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Self serving interest I expect. Australians possess what is now quite likely the highest personal debt on earth. The reason over priced housing. Just the slightest rise in rates will send many to the wall. House prices are kept artificially high by record immigration. Melbourne has overtaking Sydney now in overseas, mostly Chinese investors, as the population Ponzi continues unabated.
New topic. OK

The debt is a worry if rates were to rise, but only if rates were to rise. We have been living in a low interest rate environment for a long time now. Perhaps this is the new normal.

I think you will find negative gearing incentives provide a bigger boost to property prices than the Chinese. It also provides a dent to the coffers when it pays out a property investor on his 10th property for making a loss. Not a very smart tax plan.

Personally I'd like to see governments take a far greater chunk of Chinese money. Tax should be around 15%

Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Infrastructure is nowhere near keeping up with the highest population increases in the developed world. The cost to attempt to do so would be enormous.
I think you will find it is.

Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
You might say the country is in one big mess, with housing unaffordable in sensible locations to most locals and wages stagnating.
You could say a rush towards developing world status, with poorly built apartments huge population increases, failing conditions and denial on vested interest fronts.
Housing is affordable. If it weren't we wouldn't all be living in some sort of accommodation (with a exception of a tiny minority who call themselves homeless for a variety of reasons - often mental conditions and rarely money orientated)

It may be unaffordable for a 25 year old who believes in the self entitled right to buy a period terrace house within 3km of the city centre just so they can be around trendy bars and smashed avocado.

But that's just a resent issue, usually associated with a left wing issue.

Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Well you seem to be enjoying the race towards Hong Kong style living. Others, though I know are not so keen. Hence the flight of big numbers from Sydney to SE QLD after selling up their way over priced brick and mortar and quitting while still able.
You can choose to live in an apartment if you like, you can choose to live in a house. We can't all choose to have a house 3km from the harbour because that type of location is expensive - so what? Is that resentment again.

Again if the retirees choose to sell up in Sydney and move to the Gold Coast (I couldn't think of anything worse - parts of the central coast or Port Stephens would be far more appealing) then so be it - and so what?
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Old Oct 12th 2017, 7:23 am
  #213  
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Standard of living is high in most of Western Europe. If you want to follow a measurement made up in 90's up to you. But I'm helping you out by informing you medical services remain of a higher quality in Germany at least. They have for example drugs available that are not so in Australia. (even UK has a cancer drug available not so in Australia) In Germany they still pay for people to go to rehabilitation recovery places after an illness or for respite.


Standard of living is certainly linked to home ownership in Australia. To be without a house on retirement, for example, would be fine in Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, where rent laws abide but not in Australia. This will need to be changed, as rent in the private arena in the Australian context can mean little money left over for anything else.


You might ask yourself the reason home ownership is falling in Australia? Lowest level on record of young people in the market. Perhaps Australia is designated to replace Germany, where numbers buying are increasing.


Nothing foolish about renting. There are protections in place. Hence those people spend their money in things other than non productive housing costs.


Although you are behind the times, which is not so unusual. House prices have surged in recent times in Germany for varied reasons. Berlin is no longer the cheap place it was. Where I lived and continue to own , most do in fact own. The mentality changes depending on region. Nothing compares with Australia, close to the most over priced housing in the world though.
And yet, despite all that, Australia continues to maintain a higher overall standard of living than Germany (and Denmark and the Netherlands)

Not my opinion BTW but borne out by data from the IMF, UN, OECD, WB etc

Australia wins yet again

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Old Oct 12th 2017, 8:05 am
  #214  
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Why? You address a new topic with your next bit.



New topic. OK

The debt is a worry if rates were to rise, but only if rates were to rise. We have been living in a low interest rate environment for a long time now. Perhaps this is the new normal.

I think you will find negative gearing incentives provide a bigger boost to property prices than the Chinese. It also provides a dent to the coffers when it pays out a property investor on his 10th property for making a loss. Not a very smart tax plan.

Personally I'd like to see governments take a far greater chunk of Chinese money. Tax should be around 15%



I think you will find it is.



Housing is affordable. If it weren't we wouldn't all be living in some sort of accommodation (with a exception of a tiny minority who call themselves homeless for a variety of reasons - often mental conditions and rarely money orientated)

It may be unaffordable for a 25 year old who believes in the self entitled right to buy a period terrace house within 3km of the city centre just so they can be around trendy bars and smashed avocado.

But that's just a resent issue, usually associated with a left wing issue.



You can choose to live in an apartment if you like, you can choose to live in a house. We can't all choose to have a house 3km from the harbour because that type of location is expensive - so what? Is that resentment again.

Again if the retirees choose to sell up in Sydney and move to the Gold Coast (I couldn't think of anything worse - parts of the central coast or Port Stephens would be far more appealing) then so be it - and so what?
About the only thing you are correct about is it is off topic. As thus I shall refrain from answering in detail, except to say you are most likely too young to have any experience of down turn and recession.
When the reality of the stupidity hits you will likely be with many others blinded as a rabbit caught in the glare of headlights.
It is a question of affordability. You can feel free to examine how many times prices have increased over income. Probably the highest in the world and unsustainable. The flight from Sydney is either those cashing up and moving out or those that simply can't afford to live there.


Anyway this is about whether equality in marriage should be a right and put to an expensive and totally unnecessary vote at some expense, due to a government unable to take responsibility in decision making.
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Old Oct 14th 2017, 2:59 am
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
About the only thing you are correct about is it is off topic. As thus I shall refrain from answering in detail, except to say you are most likely too young to have any experience of down turn and recession.
Another feable attempt. Unfortunately I am old enough to have experienced down turns and recessions. But young enough to be adaptable to change. Thankfully the narrow minds of system driven old blokes like yourself are on the way out, sitting from afar, reading doom and gloom articles without first hand experience of reality.

Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
When the reality of the stupidity hits you will likely be with many others blinded as a rabbit caught in the glare of headlights.
It is a question of affordability. You can feel free to examine how many times prices have increased over income. Probably the highest in the world and unsustainable. The flight from Sydney is either those cashing up and moving out or those that simply can't afford to live there.
Well there is no flight from Sydney. The stats show that. In fact despite Melbourne and Sydney having the most expensive house market, the growth in both cities continues to outshine all other areas.

Why do you lie about this stuff?

http://blog.id.com.au/2017/population/population-trends/australias-top-20-fastest-growing-areas/

People don't leave these places because its expensive to own a home. They leave to cash in. And if you are retiring and need to free up some cash, why not.

If you choose to live in western australia in a resource based, fluctuating economy, who have to ride luck in order to cash in on their biggest asset - no thanks, continued growth with a few minor blips along the way is far more appealing than the situation you are in, where your house is worth far less than when you bought it during the boom.

Are you resenting again?

Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Anyway this is about whether equality in marriage should be a right and put to an expensive and totally unnecessary vote at some expense, due to a government unable to take responsibility in decision making.
Correct. Why did you change the topic then?
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Old Oct 15th 2017, 7:42 am
  #216  
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Another feable attempt. Unfortunately I am old enough to have experienced down turns and recessions. But young enough to be adaptable to change. Thankfully the narrow minds of system driven old blokes like yourself are on the way out, sitting from afar, reading doom and gloom articles without first hand experience of reality.

Look no further than concerns just expressed by the RBA. Too little too late, some will say. With some justification.The reality is there for all with the sense and ability to comprehend.
The narrow minds are those without the foresight to understand the market. Those that took interest only loans and those that lied basically in their ability to pay come a return to more normal rates. There is a major concern and a number may well be forced to take a hit.


I'd say I have a lot more experience than you in the housing market and on an international level. I don't see you being old enough from the way you write to have had much exposure to anything but you do run with a strong ideological slant that clouds any substance that otherwise may be revelled.

Well there is no flight from Sydney. The stats show that. In fact despite Melbourne and Sydney having the most expensive house market, the growth in both cities continues to outshine all other areas.

Yes there is a flight out of Sydney by local born. The population proxy ensures rapid population numbers are indeed increasing, especially Melbourne due to 70% of all immigrants settling in those two cities.


Why do you lie about this stuff?
A more appropriate question could be why don't you know about this stuff?
Australia’s top 20 fastest growing areas | .id blog

People don't leave these places because its expensive to own a home. They leave to cash in. And if you are retiring and need to free up some cash, why not.


People are cashing in and not only retirees. Why stay in over priced Sydney or Melbourne when can downsize in fifties and move to a cheaper, better locality with a fair bit left over?

If you choose to live in western australia in a resource based, fluctuating economy, who have to ride luck in order to cash in on their biggest asset - no thanks, continued growth with a few minor blips along the way is far more appealing than the situation you are in, where your house is worth far less than when you bought it during the boom.

Are you resenting again?

Not long ago you were denying WA was on the ropes. Same as you denied the responsibility of the banks for the mess than in 2008 led to low rates and assets bubbles in many places.

Correct. Why did you change the topic then?
I did not change the subject. The issue was raised and I responded as I always will to nonsense.


Afraid voting Yes doesn't raise your level in the 'cool stakes' unfortunately.
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Old Oct 15th 2017, 10:19 am
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
I did not change the subject. The issue was raised and I responded as I always will to nonsense.
You changed it in post 195 when you started talking about the budgets and descending into usual abyss.

Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Afraid voting Yes doesn't raise your level in the 'cool stakes' unfortunately.
If I was "Cool" I would be into environmental issues, anti Trump agenda's, and automation making us all unemployed. I am not.

If same sex people want to get married go nuts. I am not religious so I don't care. What concerns me more is the welfare of children of same sex couples, but that horse has already bolted.
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Old Oct 15th 2017, 10:52 am
  #218  
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

When even the Sydney Morning Herald is calling it, you know you dun screwed up :

The marriage plebiscite is won. Malcolm Turnbull must now ditch the conservatives and lead

They make a good point, the coalition have managed to piss off everyone. Those in the yes camp are disgusted that they ever called this vote, sorry, survey. Those in the no camp are going to be disgusted at the outcome, and the reality that the coalition has to put forward a no-games gay marriage bill (or get lynched). As the SMH points out, they have also made sure more young people are on the electoral roll - and they will vote against the coalition in 18 months time.

Trunbull is going to have to come forward with positive policies and shoot his far right wing (and particularly abbott) if this failure isn't to see him end as a damp fart.
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Old Oct 15th 2017, 8:13 pm
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
When even the Sydney Morning Herald is calling it, you know you dun screwed up :

The marriage plebiscite is won. Malcolm Turnbull must now ditch the conservatives and lead

They make a good point, the coalition have managed to piss off everyone. Those in the yes camp are disgusted that they ever called this vote, sorry, survey. Those in the no camp are going to be disgusted at the outcome, and the reality that the coalition has to put forward a no-games gay marriage bill (or get lynched). As the SMH points out, they have also made sure more young people are on the electoral roll - and they will vote against the coalition in 18 months time.

Trunbull is going to have to come forward with positive policies and shoot his far right wing (and particularly abbott) if this failure isn't to see him end as a damp fart.
Your article highlighted an important factor then conveniently glossed over it.

The problem is, there is no opposition. The article highlighted the 85 change of Labor leadership which was instrumental in Labors win. For Labor, they have a leader who continues to slump in the polls, an angry, union lead, individual who provides no hope for the many.

Unless Labor get rid of Shorten and replace him with Plibersek they are sitting ducks.

If the "yes" vote is successful, Mal will use this to boost his own stakes. People are simple, all they need to see is Mal up there surrounded in rainbows. Job done. Mal has a bigger problem if the "no" vote wins.

Last edited by Beoz; Oct 15th 2017 at 8:27 pm.
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Old Oct 15th 2017, 9:04 pm
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Nocookies | The Australian

Some twat in a silly hat who believes in sky faries is pushing for a no vote in the same sex marriage survey. Presumably this would be because both of the protagonists would be adults??

If you ever needed proof that the church should be rendered obselete then this is it IMO. Perhaps the question should have been, Should the church pay tax? Y or N

Oh and as for Dreamy's alleged bigotry towards her son if he voted no, there are certain values I hold dear that I would hope my son does too, in fact I'd be disappointed if he didn't. That's not bigotry, that's having standards.
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Old Oct 15th 2017, 9:18 pm
  #221  
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
The problem is, there is no opposition. The article highlighted the 85 change of Labor leadership which was instrumental in Labors win. For Labor, they have a leader who continues to slump in the polls, an angry, union lead, individual who provides no hope for the many.
Turnbull slips as preferred PM: Newspoll | SBS News

Malcolm Turnbull enters a new parliamentary fortnight with his government slipping in the Newspoll for the 21st time in a row ... Mr Turnbull's standing as preferred prime minister has also dipped one percentage point to 41 per cent while Opposition Leader Bill Shorten's has moved up two points to 33 per cent.


The problem is Trunbull was the one politician the coalition had that wasn't actively hated. However his inaction and acquiescence to the far right has cost him, and thus the coalition, support. If they try and roll him, who do they have? Dutton? Morrison? Bishop?, ......... Abbott?



If you think Shorten is unpopular, just wait and see what people would make of a change.
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Old Oct 15th 2017, 9:30 pm
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Some twat in a silly hat who believes in sky faries,
has protected paedophiles, prefering to pay them rather than their victims, and refused to report paedophiles to the police,

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
... is pushing for a no vote in the same sex marriage survey.

If you ever needed proof that the church should be rendered obselete then this is it IMO. Perhaps the question should have been, Should the church pay tax? Y or N
Church is already obsolete. The question is what you do about them being actively evil.
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Old Oct 15th 2017, 9:47 pm
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Turnbull slips as preferred PM: Newspoll | SBS News


http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/4...57a5?width=650

The problem is Trunbull was the one politician the coalition had that wasn't actively hated. However his inaction and acquiescence to the far right has cost him, and thus the coalition, support. If they try and roll him, who do they have? Dutton? Morrison? Bishop?, ......... Abbott?

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/5...da59?width=316

If you think Shorten is unpopular, just wait and see what people would make of a change.
Why do you do this to yourself.

Yours is Febuary, here's one from September. Mal still preferred.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2017/09/04/turnbull-increases-lead-as-preferred-pm.html

And even in Oct the story is still pretty much the same.

Here's the worry for the ALP. The two party preferred has them in front, which is usual for an opposition to be in front. No one likes a sitting government. They get all the press which is usally negative.

But on preferred PM, Shorten is miles behind. People are dumb and generally vote for the person, rather than the party.

Mal and Rainbows - good luck with your old mate Shorten.
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Old Oct 15th 2017, 9:51 pm
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Nocookies | The Australian

Some twat in a silly hat who believes in sky faries is pushing for a no vote in the same sex marriage survey. Presumably this would be because both of the protagonists would be adults??

If you ever needed proof that the church should be rendered obselete then this is it IMO. Perhaps the question should have been, Should the church pay tax? Y or N

Oh and as for Dreamy's alleged bigotry towards her son if he voted no, there are certain values I hold dear that I would hope my son does too, in fact I'd be disappointed if he didn't. That's not bigotry, that's having standards.
Well he has played the bigotry card. Why not. The other side have been playing it for years.

"Traditional believers will be vulnerable to discrimination suits and other kinds of bullying for their beliefs. Some may lose their jobs, promotions, businesses, political careers."

And they say we don't need a vote. Really?
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Old Oct 15th 2017, 10:20 pm
  #225  
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Default Re: The Yes No vote

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Why do you do this to yourself.
What do you mean, provide real data (from today) that negates your point, or bother replying to your bullshit?

For the first, because it's useful to point out the trend, particularly since Trunbull is going to have a bad week. For the second, well I do ask myself that question, frequently.

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Here's the worry for the ALP. The two party preferred has them in front, which is usual for an opposition to be in front. No one likes a sitting government. They get all the press which is usally negative.
Actually the two party preferred tends to favour the incumbent, because they have control of the narrative, and the publicity. They can look like they are doing things, and can deliver bribes.

Of course, if they stuff it up, or have a tame press willing to lie for them, that can reverse, which is when they tend to roll the PM.

And PMs are usually out in front and preferred, purely because they get the publicity.

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
But on preferred PM, Shorten is miles behind. People are dumb and generally vote for the person, rather than the party.
And the coalition are gearing up to try to roll him, and replace with one the chuckle brothers mentioned. That's the issue - Trunbull will have to gut the far right in his party before Christmas if he's to cling on. He certainly has no wins to point to. And as more people get FTTN, more people have reason to hate him personally.
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