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The world of automation

The world of automation

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Old Feb 20th 2018, 5:08 pm
  #1201  
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Default Re: The world of automation

Quick question for you Aussies, what's the common term people are using for the new credit/debit card technology. In the UK it's generally referred to as "contactless" and I've just found out that in Canada people are saying "tap" (& pay). Australia?
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Old Feb 20th 2018, 8:15 pm
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Default Re: The world of automation

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Quick question for you Aussies, what's the common term people are using for the new credit/debit card technology. In the UK it's generally referred to as "contactless" and I've just found out that in Canada people are saying "tap" (& pay). Australia?
Tap.
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Old Feb 20th 2018, 8:35 pm
  #1203  
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Default Re: The world of automation

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Tap.
Thanks.
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Old Mar 19th 2018, 7:45 pm
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Default Re: The world of automation

Ouch

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/uber-suspends-autonomous-vehicles-after-self-driving-car-kills-woman-20180320-p4z560.html
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Old Mar 19th 2018, 10:22 pm
  #1205  
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Default Re: The world of automation

Thought you might pop up...

Seems she was a cyclist walking her bicycle at night across an six lane carriageway, not at a crosswalk. Also looks like she wasn't hit head on (the damage is on a vehicle corner) and both the automation and human driver didn't prevent it.

Upshot is, if this is accurate, Arizona jaywalking laws put her in the wrong - and who the hell is out with a bike in the middle of the night in Phoenix anyway?

However the press will have a field day (already have) with their sensationalist stories that they had ready to go. Whereas normally it would be a line item in a local newspaper about a cyclist killing themselves. By the end of the day they will probably be likening the vehicle to Terminator.

Mind, it's also Uber, who have been pushing hard to catchup as their time in the sun looks to be closing (Ford in the robotaxi market will eat them up). So they are probably not as hot at the edge cases as others.

Upshot is it's probably a non-story (accidents on roads, natch) - but the press will be clutching at pearls and screaming "won't somebody please think of the cyclists".

Edit : Just did a little digging and I think the police/local council are going to be in the sh*t. This is where it happened, as far as I can make out from the police report/photos.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4366...7i13312!8i6656

If you look around, you'll see a nice paved pathway between carriageways, ideal for bikes, with a sign in the middle of it saying "don't cross here". And on the other side of the carriageway a worn dirt track leading off towards tracks in a park. So my guess is they created the pathways in the middle of the roads, then decided to shut them down and direct everyone to make a diversion up the road to the junction, and then back again. But they left the paths there, and guess what, people continued to use them. In particular there are trees just before the path, obscuring the view of anyone coming across that meridian pathway, particularly for anyone turning left.

This might well get interesting in a way that I predicted a while back - the local council have done a questionable job of road and path design, and Uber are going to push the liability onto them. However the council are going to slope shoulders and try and blame 'dangerous autonomous vehicles'. In the end they will probably blame the cyclist.

Last edited by GarryP; Mar 19th 2018 at 11:01 pm. Reason: More detail
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Old Mar 19th 2018, 11:42 pm
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Default Re: The world of automation

It will certainly be interesting to see how the press play it. The BBC news report I saw was factual (at this stage) and included only one pundit, a young tech type, who simply pointed out that there are many fatalities every day, and that the point of AV is to reduce that number. I guess at the end of the day the public will start to see it as no more tragic than if someone dies in an elevator or escalator malfunction.

Listened to an Elon video the yesterday and he sounds like he's ready to ramp up AV deployment/sales in 2019-20.
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 12:42 am
  #1207  
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Default Re: The world of automation

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Thought you might pop up...

Seems she was a cyclist walking her bicycle at night across an six lane carriageway, not at a crosswalk. Also looks like she wasn't hit head on (the damage is on a vehicle corner) and both the automation and human driver didn't prevent it.

Upshot is, if this is accurate, Arizona jaywalking laws put her in the wrong - and who the hell is out with a bike in the middle of the night in Phoenix anyway?

However the press will have a field day (already have) with their sensationalist stories that they had ready to go. Whereas normally it would be a line item in a local newspaper about a cyclist killing themselves. By the end of the day they will probably be likening the vehicle to Terminator.

Mind, it's also Uber, who have been pushing hard to catchup as their time in the sun looks to be closing (Ford in the robotaxi market will eat them up). So they are probably not as hot at the edge cases as others.

Upshot is it's probably a non-story (accidents on roads, natch) - but the press will be clutching at pearls and screaming "won't somebody please think of the cyclists".

Edit : Just did a little digging and I think the police/local council are going to be in the sh*t. This is where it happened, as far as I can make out from the police report/photos.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4366...7i13312!8i6656

If you look around, you'll see a nice paved pathway between carriageways, ideal for bikes, with a sign in the middle of it saying "don't cross here". And on the other side of the carriageway a worn dirt track leading off towards tracks in a park. So my guess is they created the pathways in the middle of the roads, then decided to shut them down and direct everyone to make a diversion up the road to the junction, and then back again. But they left the paths there, and guess what, people continued to use them. In particular there are trees just before the path, obscuring the view of anyone coming across that meridian pathway, particularly for anyone turning left.

This might well get interesting in a way that I predicted a while back - the local council have done a questionable job of road and path design, and Uber are going to push the liability onto them. However the council are going to slope shoulders and try and blame 'dangerous autonomous vehicles'. In the end they will probably blame the cyclist.
I am reading 4 lane but what's a couple of lanes between mates.

Yes driver in the seat but it was in autonomous mode. Did the driver have the time to take control and prevent something the machine couldn't do? I guess we will find out.

Testing better done outside the crosswalk. All too easy to program the crosswalk scenario into the machine. Small child running out???

Either way, Uber have cancelled testing and this is a big setback. Not highly unexpected. Most of us know autonomous vehicles are a long way off.
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 12:50 am
  #1208  
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Default Re: The world of automation

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
I am reading 4 lane but what's a couple of lanes between mates.
Take a look at the streetview, it goes from two lanes each way to broader with turning lanes at that point.

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Yes driver in the seat but it was in autonomous mode. Did the driver have the time to take control and prevent something the machine couldn't do? I guess we will find out.
Again, check out the streetview. It's possible to see a scenario there that gives no driver the chance to react - mainly because the path/road design there is a mess.

My guess is the road designers are going to get most of the blame, cyclist second, car last - basically the opposite of what the press is saying.

In the end autonomous vehicles are never going to deliver zero accidents, particularly when pedestrians run out into the road from an obscured location.
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 1:58 am
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Default Re: The world of automation

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Take a look at the streetview, it goes from two lanes each way to broader with turning lanes at that point.

Again, check out the streetview. It's possible to see a scenario there that gives no driver the chance to react - mainly because the path/road design there is a mess.

My guess is the road designers are going to get most of the blame, cyclist second, car last - basically the opposite of what the press is saying.

In the end autonomous vehicles are never going to deliver zero accidents, particularly when pedestrians run out into the road from an obscured location.
So lets say in this scenario, the cyclist was riding with a bit of a wobble in the gutter. Human may look at that and say, "she's a bit unsteady, she could be a bit drunk, she could topple into the next lane" Human then says, I will slow down, or I might give a good 3 - 4 meter clearance.

What does Uber Droid see. "Cyclist in the gutter". "Give 2 metre clearance".

Uber Droid does not see wobbly drunk cyclist that is unpredictable.

Does Uber Droid see a 3 year old and say "Unpredictable, football chasing, midget?" Humans can.
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 5:34 am
  #1210  
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Default Re: The world of automation

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
So lets say in this scenario, the cyclist was riding with a bit of a wobble in the gutter. Human may look at that and say, "she's a bit unsteady, she could be a bit drunk, she could topple into the next lane" Human then says, I will slow down, or I might give a good 3 - 4 meter clearance.

What does Uber Droid see. "Cyclist in the gutter". "Give 2 metre clearance".

Uber Droid does not see wobbly drunk cyclist that is unpredictable.

Does Uber Droid see a 3 year old and say "Unpredictable, football chasing, midget?" Humans can.
I kind of half agree with you ....

I think we have habitually allowed poor quality roads, signs, drivers, pedestrians, etc. leeway to be poor - blaming drivers for the accidents that result. However, going forward, I don't think we can allow them to escape. If the autonomous vehicle works perfectly except when the cyclist wanders all over the road unpredictably - we are probably going to have to get them off the roads instead.

In particular, if an autonomous vehicle swerves to avoid an unsteady cyclist and hits another vehicle, you can bet that the company will ensure the liability and full costs will be put on the cyclist. So no more unlicensed, uninsured, cyclists blaming drivers for everything. Similarly with that pot hole that hasn't be fixed, those road marking that are unclear, the dog that runs into the road, etc.

As per the Arizona accident, the cars will have the evidence to demonstrate where the liability should be placed, and the lawyers to make sure its not with the autonomous vehicle...
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 6:08 am
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Default Re: The world of automation

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
I kind of half agree with you ....

I think we have habitually allowed poor quality roads, signs, drivers, pedestrians, etc. leeway to be poor - blaming drivers for the accidents that result. However, going forward, I don't think we can allow them to escape. If the autonomous vehicle works perfectly except when the cyclist wanders all over the road unpredictably - we are probably going to have to get them off the roads instead.

In particular, if an autonomous vehicle swerves to avoid an unsteady cyclist and hits another vehicle, you can bet that the company will ensure the liability and full costs will be put on the cyclist. So no more unlicensed, uninsured, cyclists blaming drivers for everything. Similarly with that pot hole that hasn't be fixed, those road marking that are unclear, the dog that runs into the road, etc.

As per the Arizona accident, the cars will have the evidence to demonstrate where the liability should be placed, and the lawyers to make sure its not with the autonomous vehicle...
Will be interesting to see what comes of the lessons learned in this one.
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 6:23 am
  #1212  
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Default Re: The world of automation

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Will be interesting to see what comes of the lessons learned in this one.
Sounds like the individual hit was homeless.

The victim, 49-year-old Elaine Herzberg, has a history of minor crimes and drug offenses; she spent more than a year in prison, getting out in December 2016, for cannabis and dangerous drug violations. Elcock said Herzberg may have been homeless.
Guess who's going to end up with the blame....
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 6:55 am
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Default Re: The world of automation

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Sounds like the individual hit was homeless.

Guess who's going to end up with the blame....
I don't think discrimination between homeless people and homed people will fly in this case.
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 7:07 am
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Default Re: The world of automation

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
I don't think discrimination between homeless people and homed people will fly in this case.
Blame rolls downhill to the person without lawyers to fight back.
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Old Mar 20th 2018, 7:56 am
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Default Re: The world of automation

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Blame rolls downhill to the person without lawyers to fight back.
Needs Erin Brockovich
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