What is it about Aus that makes you..
Oct 18th 2007, 1:33 am
#16
CynOpt
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 302
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
The OP asked for positives, I gave positives.
Over-generalised positives maybe, but definitely in comparison to the UK all of them have at least some element of truth.
The post was long enough as it was without adding in ifs, buts and howevers, and I thought I had added in enough "seems" and "in OUT perceptions"'s to keep the pack off my back.
Obviously not.
Ask me for negatives about the UK, and I'll tell you about the people who feel that they can't let someone else's opinion go by without taking a smug poke at it and trying to make you feel small in front of other people.
Now THAT's "class" culture.
To clarify, being "class conscious" is not about HAVING an upper class, its about that instant analysis many ( but by NO means all ) English people I've met, seem to make the first time they meet you, sizing up EXACTLY where you sit in the social scale in relation to them.
That quick little look up and down, then sizing up your accent, your shoes, your clothes, your makeup, the little smug head nod when they find out what your job is. You can almost FEEL the little pointer on the scale wobbling up and down as it centres in on your "real" social position.
Try being at a big works xmas do and just for fun tell the managerial looking guy sat next that you do something like shelf stacking. Just watch the shutters come down.
The people looking "up" the scale notice it more, obviously, not the ones looking "down". Or those of us who weren't indoctrinated in it from birth.
And don't begin to tell me that that doesn't happen, some people here are so inherently class conscious, that they don't even realise they are doing it.
And I'm not saying that Aus is more egalitarian than all other countries, what I'm saying is that the UK is LESS egalitarian than it thinks it is, and certainly less egalitarian than many of its "western" peers. Even if it's only socially.
Move away for 10 years, and come back for a visit and THEN you'll see it.
And if anyone's about to say why don't I leave the UK then, well if Aus doesn't work out, we are moving to Ireland, not back here, not now that my OH has realised that he doesn't have to accept that kind of attitude from anyone.
I hated the class culture when I got here first, and insisted I'd move "home" as soon as I could get a job back there, but over the years I'd almost grown blind to it myself until he opened my eyes again, and I don't like that about myself.
Don't poke, I bite.
Over-generalised positives maybe, but definitely in comparison to the UK all of them have at least some element of truth.
The post was long enough as it was without adding in ifs, buts and howevers, and I thought I had added in enough "seems" and "in OUT perceptions"'s to keep the pack off my back.
Obviously not.
Ask me for negatives about the UK, and I'll tell you about the people who feel that they can't let someone else's opinion go by without taking a smug poke at it and trying to make you feel small in front of other people.
Now THAT's "class" culture.
To clarify, being "class conscious" is not about HAVING an upper class, its about that instant analysis many ( but by NO means all ) English people I've met, seem to make the first time they meet you, sizing up EXACTLY where you sit in the social scale in relation to them.
That quick little look up and down, then sizing up your accent, your shoes, your clothes, your makeup, the little smug head nod when they find out what your job is. You can almost FEEL the little pointer on the scale wobbling up and down as it centres in on your "real" social position.
Try being at a big works xmas do and just for fun tell the managerial looking guy sat next that you do something like shelf stacking. Just watch the shutters come down.
The people looking "up" the scale notice it more, obviously, not the ones looking "down". Or those of us who weren't indoctrinated in it from birth.
And don't begin to tell me that that doesn't happen, some people here are so inherently class conscious, that they don't even realise they are doing it.
And I'm not saying that Aus is more egalitarian than all other countries, what I'm saying is that the UK is LESS egalitarian than it thinks it is, and certainly less egalitarian than many of its "western" peers. Even if it's only socially.
Move away for 10 years, and come back for a visit and THEN you'll see it.
And if anyone's about to say why don't I leave the UK then, well if Aus doesn't work out, we are moving to Ireland, not back here, not now that my OH has realised that he doesn't have to accept that kind of attitude from anyone.
I hated the class culture when I got here first, and insisted I'd move "home" as soon as I could get a job back there, but over the years I'd almost grown blind to it myself until he opened my eyes again, and I don't like that about myself.
Don't poke, I bite.
Oct 18th 2007, 10:09 am
#17
Frequent Flyer Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 10,994
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
Anyway, I dont see why you would have to return in 10 years time to suddenly recognise something that you supposedly lived with for 90% of your life? I can genuinely think of one occasion in the UK where I encountered what I would consider class related snobbery - when someone I met was aghast to learn that neither of my parents were university educated and really went to town on the fact. Other than that I worked & socialised with many people who clearly had entirely different social backgrounds and I never encountered any issues.
What I have experienced in both countries is people being judged on the basis of where they live, what kind of school they went to etc. Mention many of the suburbs to the south and west of Brisbane to some of the locals and the reaction you will get is far from egalitarian.
Clearly your experiences are different....and that's fine....i'm not suggesting that it's a figment of your imagination.
Oct 18th 2007, 10:53 am
#18
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,584
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
Have you thought the problem might be you? Maybe you have an authority problem and not a class problem.
Oct 18th 2007, 11:14 am
#19
Niamh,Paul + 4 :)
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: sunshine coast, now back home in Ireland :)
Posts: 1,861
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
be nice there is no need for nastiness, 
no need to gang up on some one because they have a different opinion to you
no need to gang up on some one because they have a different opinion to you
Oct 18th 2007, 3:05 pm
#20
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,521
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
....
What I have experienced in both countries is people being judged on the basis of where they live, what kind of school they went to etc. Mention many of the suburbs to the south and west of Brisbane to some of the locals and the reaction you will get is far from egalitarian.
Clearly your experiences are different....and that's fine....i'm not suggesting that it's a figment of your imagination.
What I have experienced in both countries is people being judged on the basis of where they live, what kind of school they went to etc. Mention many of the suburbs to the south and west of Brisbane to some of the locals and the reaction you will get is far from egalitarian.
Clearly your experiences are different....and that's fine....i'm not suggesting that it's a figment of your imagination.
I would never have dreamt of sending my kids to a private school in UK but I considered it here because in my experience the school you went to and suburb you live in does unfortunately count when it comes to employment (and attitudes) in Brisbane whether people want to admit it or not. To clarify, I've assisted on the hiring side a couple of times and I've noticed if it comes down to two equally capable applicants the one who went to the private school and lives in a nice suburb ends up getting it.
I'm not saying it's worse than UK in this regard but I am saying it does exist here ... more than previous poster probably realises.
Last edited by rabsody; Oct 18th 2007 at 3:13 pm.
Oct 19th 2007, 1:04 am
#21
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Hill overlooking the SE Melbourne suburbs
Posts: 16,622
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
Ummm, yes CynOpt, have you had a look at yourself and you OH. You are the ones that seem so hung up about it. The OP was only asking about why people move and you enter into a diatribe about class. You said you ex-union rep OH gets very offended when stupid posh people try to condescend to him, and they very soon get put in their place and then go on about you old boss being a twat, etc.
Have you thought the problem might be you? Maybe you have an authority problem and not a class problem.
Have you thought the problem might be you? Maybe you have an authority problem and not a class problem.
They probably enjoy it (ducks for cover)
Oct 19th 2007, 1:24 am
#22
Fighting my corner
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 11,948
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
When you see people equating levels of income with social class, it's a sure sign that they don't actually know what a "class system" is.
A class system is a form of social stratification under which people born into a particular stratum of society are automatically granted superior rights and privileges, while those "below" them will have fewer privileges and limited social mobility.
For example:
Social mobility is restricted under both systems, but the British model (having been democratised in recent years) offers greater freedom. Nevertheless, the traditional barriers are deeply ingrained and still prevail. Social mobility in the UK today is lower than in any other Western developed nation (see hereand here) and will probably remain this way for the conceivable future.
Unlike the UK, Australia does not have its own monarchy or aristocracy. This immediately distinguishes our social system from that of the UK; two of Britain's most significant social ranks simply do not exist in our country. Why is that? Simple: it's because we don't have a class system.
While it is true that in Australia (as in most Western nations) people have a tendency to judge each other by their economic success (eg. a high-level professional with an expensive house and car will often be described as "middle class", this does not constitute a class system.
Economic stratification does not equate to social stratification, because social class is not determined by income; it is determined by rank, status, and privilege. This is verifiable: Lord Marlborough could lose all his money tomorrow, but he would still be Lord Marlborough; by contrast, I could win win Lotto tomorrow and buy a stately home, but that wouldn't make me a peer.
Australia does not have a class system; it simply has a population with varying levels of income who tend to describe each other's socio-economic status in the language of social stratification. This phenomenon is common to other Western nations without a class system, such as the USA.
A class system is a form of social stratification under which people born into a particular stratum of society are automatically granted superior rights and privileges, while those "below" them will have fewer privileges and limited social mobility.
For example:
- India
Brahmin (rulers/religious leaders)
Kshatriya (military)
Vaishya (merchants, artisans & landowners)
Shudra (labourers)
Dalit ("untouchables"; social outcasts who live permanently below the poverty line)
- UK
Monarchy (royal family)
Aristocracy (hereditary peers; barons; landed gentry, etc.)
Middle class (professionals & industrialists)
Working class (everyone else)
Social mobility is restricted under both systems, but the British model (having been democratised in recent years) offers greater freedom. Nevertheless, the traditional barriers are deeply ingrained and still prevail. Social mobility in the UK today is lower than in any other Western developed nation (see hereand here) and will probably remain this way for the conceivable future.
Unlike the UK, Australia does not have its own monarchy or aristocracy. This immediately distinguishes our social system from that of the UK; two of Britain's most significant social ranks simply do not exist in our country. Why is that? Simple: it's because we don't have a class system.
While it is true that in Australia (as in most Western nations) people have a tendency to judge each other by their economic success (eg. a high-level professional with an expensive house and car will often be described as "middle class", this does not constitute a class system.
Economic stratification does not equate to social stratification, because social class is not determined by income; it is determined by rank, status, and privilege. This is verifiable: Lord Marlborough could lose all his money tomorrow, but he would still be Lord Marlborough; by contrast, I could win win Lotto tomorrow and buy a stately home, but that wouldn't make me a peer.
Australia does not have a class system; it simply has a population with varying levels of income who tend to describe each other's socio-economic status in the language of social stratification. This phenomenon is common to other Western nations without a class system, such as the USA.
Last edited by Vash the Stampede; Oct 19th 2007 at 1:26 am.
Oct 19th 2007, 1:25 am
#23
Fighting my corner
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 11,948
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
Maybe it was because I didn't really care when I was young and carefree but when I came back to settle with kids and was interacting more at kindy/in the workplace I noticed the whole judging by what suburb you live in and definitely what school you went to very noticeable in Brisbane.
The two are not equivalent.
Oct 19th 2007, 1:40 am
#24
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Happily in Adelaide
Posts: 11,994
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
When you see people equating levels of income with social class, it's a sure sign that they don't actually know what a "class system" is.
A class system is a form of social stratification under which people born into a particular stratum of society are automatically granted superior rights and privileges, while those "below" them will have fewer privileges and limited social mobility.
For example:
Social mobility is restricted under both systems, but the British model (having been democratised in recent years) offers greater freedom. Nevertheless, the traditional barriers are deeply ingrained and still prevail. Social mobility in the UK today is lower than in any other Western developed nation (see hereand here) and will probably remain this way for the conceivable future.
Unlike the UK, Australia does not have its own monarchy or aristocracy. This immediately distinguishes our social system from that of the UK; two of Britain's most significant social ranks simply do not exist in our country. Why is that? Simple: it's because we don't have a class system.
While it is true that in Australia (as in most Western nations) people have a tendency to judge each other by their economic success (eg. a high-level professional with an expensive house and car will often be described as "middle class", this does not constitute a class system.
Economic stratification does not equate to social stratification, because social class is not determined by income; it is determined by rank, status, and privilege. This is verifiable: Lord Marlborough could lose all his money tomorrow, but he would still be Lord Marlborough; by contrast, I could win win Lotto tomorrow and buy a stately home, but that wouldn't make me a peer.
Australia does not have a class system; it simply has a population with varying levels of income who tend to describe each other's socio-economic status in the language of social stratification. This phenomenon is common to other Western nations without a class system, such as the USA.
A class system is a form of social stratification under which people born into a particular stratum of society are automatically granted superior rights and privileges, while those "below" them will have fewer privileges and limited social mobility.
For example:
- India
Brahmin (rulers/religious leaders)
Kshatriya (military)
Vaishya (merchants, artisans & landowners)
Shudra (labourers)
Dalit ("untouchables"; social outcasts who live permanently below the poverty line)
- UK
Monarchy (royal family)
Aristocracy (hereditary peers; barons; landed gentry, etc.)
Middle class (professionals & industrialists)
Working class (everyone else)
Social mobility is restricted under both systems, but the British model (having been democratised in recent years) offers greater freedom. Nevertheless, the traditional barriers are deeply ingrained and still prevail. Social mobility in the UK today is lower than in any other Western developed nation (see hereand here) and will probably remain this way for the conceivable future.
Unlike the UK, Australia does not have its own monarchy or aristocracy. This immediately distinguishes our social system from that of the UK; two of Britain's most significant social ranks simply do not exist in our country. Why is that? Simple: it's because we don't have a class system.
While it is true that in Australia (as in most Western nations) people have a tendency to judge each other by their economic success (eg. a high-level professional with an expensive house and car will often be described as "middle class", this does not constitute a class system.
Economic stratification does not equate to social stratification, because social class is not determined by income; it is determined by rank, status, and privilege. This is verifiable: Lord Marlborough could lose all his money tomorrow, but he would still be Lord Marlborough; by contrast, I could win win Lotto tomorrow and buy a stately home, but that wouldn't make me a peer.
Australia does not have a class system; it simply has a population with varying levels of income who tend to describe each other's socio-economic status in the language of social stratification. This phenomenon is common to other Western nations without a class system, such as the USA.
I would have said the same myself - only not as eloquently!
Oct 19th 2007, 2:14 am
#25
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Far away from canned Oz
Posts: 1,833
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
As somebody who spent 12 years living in Oz, I feel a tad qualified to comment on Oz's so-called egalitarinism and lack of class.
Firstly, Oz likes to believe it's an egalitarian society; it isn't. Don't believe that what family you were born into and school you went to don't matter. They do. As many people looking for a job in Oz will find, it's who you know that matters. The first time I encountered the 'old boy network' was in Sydney, not UK.
As for the bull***t about Ausies working hard, well I nearly died laughing.
Because Aussies have little culture and sense of identity they are incredibly materialistic. Still, things could be worse, you could have been born an Aborigine and have a life expectancy 20 years less than good ol' whitey. Now, remind me again, where in the UK is life expectancy that low?
Oz is like UK on sedatives.
As for UK union reps, they would love a "class war". Before I encountered unions, I always believed they were a good thing. However, my experience of unions - in Oz and UK - is that they prevent change, thereby consigning most companies to the dustbin. Just look at the RMT union. I've dealt with some of these guys and they are dinosaurs. I just hope evolution deals them a fatal blow soon.
Firstly, Oz likes to believe it's an egalitarian society; it isn't. Don't believe that what family you were born into and school you went to don't matter. They do. As many people looking for a job in Oz will find, it's who you know that matters. The first time I encountered the 'old boy network' was in Sydney, not UK.
As for the bull***t about Ausies working hard, well I nearly died laughing.
Because Aussies have little culture and sense of identity they are incredibly materialistic. Still, things could be worse, you could have been born an Aborigine and have a life expectancy 20 years less than good ol' whitey. Now, remind me again, where in the UK is life expectancy that low?
Oz is like UK on sedatives.
As for UK union reps, they would love a "class war". Before I encountered unions, I always believed they were a good thing. However, my experience of unions - in Oz and UK - is that they prevent change, thereby consigning most companies to the dustbin. Just look at the RMT union. I've dealt with some of these guys and they are dinosaurs. I just hope evolution deals them a fatal blow soon.
Oct 19th 2007, 2:18 am
#26
Banned
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Morayfield - The Posh Part
Posts: 10,138
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
want to live there? I keep getting asked this question and detail what it is but try very hard not to sound like England/Uk is a devils haven. What is it that has made you decide to move? Ok mine is family, but most people on this forum grew up over this side of the equator - what is it that you feel will make a better life or why are you taking the ride?
Oct 19th 2007, 2:56 am
#27
Bitter and twisted
Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Upmarket
Posts: 17,503
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
Unlike the UK, Australia does not have its own monarchy or aristocracy. This immediately distinguishes our social system from that of the UK; two of Britain's most significant social ranks simply do not exist in our country. Why is that? Simple: it's because we don't have a class system.
So why all the fuss when an Australian girl married into a european royal family?....it was never out of the news for ages.
G
Oct 19th 2007, 2:59 am
#28
Bitter and twisted
Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Upmarket
Posts: 17,503
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
Oct 19th 2007, 3:00 am
#29
Account Closed
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,374
Re: What is it about Aus that makes you..
want to go home........oh just about everything.
and in my usual lazy arsed way i have not read the whole thread
but as for class, class consious aus just about takes the biscuit, working in the private health sector my gawwwwwwwdddd i never knew such snobs existed
, give me the ole nhs warts 'n' all..........ok i know i am feeling pretty bitter just now........but give me a doctor in aus who cares about patients instead of $$$$$$$ and i'll eat my pc............but even so much so give me a doctor who give a rats arse what a nurse says and i'll eat anything!!!!!!
actually, and this may come of a schock, did to me,i have never met such utterly snobby people as the medical austalians, they are snobs beyond belief!!!!!!!!!, and the younger they are the worse they are!!!!!!!
vash you know l luv you beyond belief, but i cannot express enough the disgust i feel in the snobbery i have encountered here
and in my usual lazy arsed way i have not read the whole thread
but as for class, class consious aus just about takes the biscuit, working in the private health sector my gawwwwwwwdddd i never knew such snobs existed
, give me the ole nhs warts 'n' all..........ok i know i am feeling pretty bitter just now........but give me a doctor in aus who cares about patients instead of $$$$$$$ and i'll eat my pc............but even so much so give me a doctor who give a rats arse what a nurse says and i'll eat anything!!!!!!actually, and this may come of a schock, did to me,i have never met such utterly snobby people as the medical austalians, they are snobs beyond belief!!!!!!!!!, and the younger they are the worse they are!!!!!!!
vash you know l luv you beyond belief, but i cannot express enough the disgust i feel in the snobbery i have encountered here
Last edited by Margaret3; Oct 19th 2007 at 3:11 am.
