UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
Mar 18th 2010, 12:25 am
#61
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Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
Hi
The decision, surely, is only sensible if it is applied equally across all expat pensioners?
I do agree with you, however, that with a rapidly ageing population (in all western countries), there will have to be a major rethink on the way pensions are funded, both state and private. That of course is for the future and I have no idea how that can be achieved but it does not apply to the current issues whereby the money we have all already paid in is being withheld from some of us.
Jim
The decision, surely, is only sensible if it is applied equally across all expat pensioners?
I do agree with you, however, that with a rapidly ageing population (in all western countries), there will have to be a major rethink on the way pensions are funded, both state and private. That of course is for the future and I have no idea how that can be achieved but it does not apply to the current issues whereby the money we have all already paid in is being withheld from some of us.
Jim
Mar 18th 2010, 12:28 am
#62
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Location: Terrigal - NSW Central Coast since June 2005
Posts: 1,237
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
I am trying to get my (old!) head round your first sentence. Are you saying that the 9% Aus Super contribution from the employer is subject to taxation on the individual ? NI contributions (another form of taxation in all other respects)and personal taxation in UK are, of course, separate from each other.
Am I missing the point?
Jim
Mar 18th 2010, 12:40 am
#63
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Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
Employer super contributions are taxed at 15% I believe. That tax is deducted at source though if that is what you mean - not 'billed' later on the tax return...in my case anyway.
Mar 18th 2010, 12:49 am
#64
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Mar 18th 2010, 1:17 am
#65
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Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
I *was* referring to private pensions. We all know about the iniquitous treatment of the state pension, but that part of a private pension that is SERPS opted-out is also affected.
Mar 18th 2010, 1:33 am
#66
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Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
On the wider aspect of post-retirement income I think the basic problem is that we (by "we" I mean Western society) have lost sight of a fundamental fact.
Ignoring increasing productivity (for want of a better word), the way I look at it is we should earn during our lives what we will pay out in living. On average.
Trouble is, we have this thing about leaving capital to the children. Effectively this means we either have to earn over a working life enough to live off until we croak PLUS that capital, or enough to live off up to retirement PLUS that capital - and expect the state to if needed keep us in retirement.
The latter scenario - which is roughly what we have at present - is unsustainable over the long term.
I think there's quite a case to be made for taxing capital "left over" when you die at nearly 100%. In other words you spend what you earn over your lifetime.
(Takes cover)
Ignoring increasing productivity (for want of a better word), the way I look at it is we should earn during our lives what we will pay out in living. On average.
Trouble is, we have this thing about leaving capital to the children. Effectively this means we either have to earn over a working life enough to live off until we croak PLUS that capital, or enough to live off up to retirement PLUS that capital - and expect the state to if needed keep us in retirement.
The latter scenario - which is roughly what we have at present - is unsustainable over the long term.
I think there's quite a case to be made for taxing capital "left over" when you die at nearly 100%. In other words you spend what you earn over your lifetime.
(Takes cover)
Mar 18th 2010, 1:58 am
#67
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Posts: 10,784
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
On the wider aspect of post-retirement income I think the basic problem is that we (by "we" I mean Western society) have lost sight of a fundamental fact.
Ignoring increasing productivity (for want of a better word), the way I look at it is we should earn during our lives what we will pay out in living. On average.
Trouble is, we have this thing about leaving capital to the children. Effectively this means we either have to earn over a working life enough to live off until we croak PLUS that capital, or enough to live off up to retirement PLUS that capital - and expect the state to if needed keep us in retirement.
The latter scenario - which is roughly what we have at present - is unsustainable over the long term.
I think there's quite a case to be made for taxing capital "left over" when you die at nearly 100%. In other words you spend what you earn over your lifetime.
(Takes cover)
Ignoring increasing productivity (for want of a better word), the way I look at it is we should earn during our lives what we will pay out in living. On average.
Trouble is, we have this thing about leaving capital to the children. Effectively this means we either have to earn over a working life enough to live off until we croak PLUS that capital, or enough to live off up to retirement PLUS that capital - and expect the state to if needed keep us in retirement.
The latter scenario - which is roughly what we have at present - is unsustainable over the long term.
I think there's quite a case to be made for taxing capital "left over" when you die at nearly 100%. In other words you spend what you earn over your lifetime.
(Takes cover)
Mar 18th 2010, 2:42 am
#68
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,316
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
On the wider aspect of post-retirement income I think the basic problem is that we (by "we" I mean Western society) have lost sight of a fundamental fact.
Ignoring increasing productivity (for want of a better word), the way I look at it is we should earn during our lives what we will pay out in living. On average.
Trouble is, we have this thing about leaving capital to the children. Effectively this means we either have to earn over a working life enough to live off until we croak PLUS that capital, or enough to live off up to retirement PLUS that capital - and expect the state to if needed keep us in retirement.
The latter scenario - which is roughly what we have at present - is unsustainable over the long term.
I think there's quite a case to be made for taxing capital "left over" when you die at nearly 100%. In other words you spend what you earn over your lifetime.
(Takes cover)
Ignoring increasing productivity (for want of a better word), the way I look at it is we should earn during our lives what we will pay out in living. On average.
Trouble is, we have this thing about leaving capital to the children. Effectively this means we either have to earn over a working life enough to live off until we croak PLUS that capital, or enough to live off up to retirement PLUS that capital - and expect the state to if needed keep us in retirement.
The latter scenario - which is roughly what we have at present - is unsustainable over the long term.
I think there's quite a case to be made for taxing capital "left over" when you die at nearly 100%. In other words you spend what you earn over your lifetime.
(Takes cover)
Why bother earning any capital at all if it's just going to end up in the pocket of the state (presumably to pay for everyone else who couldn't be bothered building up any capital)?
Last edited by MartinLuther; Mar 18th 2010 at 2:46 am.
Mar 18th 2010, 2:53 am
#69
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Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
When capital is left on death it must mean that - again on average - he has earned more than he's spent living - and that "extra" has come from somewhere: the community.
I'm not putting this forward as a serious position, but it *is* a longterm problem with capitalism in a philosophical sense, and is one reason why ever-increasing consumption is seen as a good and necessary thing nowadays despite the obvious connection with the GFC.
Mar 18th 2010, 3:15 am
#70
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Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Ilukapool. WA
Posts: 12,467
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
I'm not surprised with the blatantly unfair ruling, just the thin end of the wedge before they deny the state pension to all who are overseas IMHO.
In fact the only way the UK (and indeed most western countries) is going to be able to balance the pension books is to either massively increase migration and/or slash pension benefits.
Pensioners living overseas are the first target, next they'll bring in means testing.
Brown has already robbed billions from UK pension funds by taxing them, someone should shoot the bastard, where are Al-Quaida when you reed them?
In fact the only way the UK (and indeed most western countries) is going to be able to balance the pension books is to either massively increase migration and/or slash pension benefits.
Pensioners living overseas are the first target, next they'll bring in means testing.
Brown has already robbed billions from UK pension funds by taxing them, someone should shoot the bastard, where are Al-Quaida when you reed them?
Mar 18th 2010, 5:31 am
#71
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,348
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
To be honest I would have been amazed (and impressed) if they'd overruled it. After all, these are the kinds of things which Europe overrules:
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...ed-by-Brussels
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3455996.ece
Mar 18th 2010, 5:45 am
#72
Banned
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,348
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
I'm not surprised with the blatantly unfair ruling, just the thin end of the wedge before they deny the state pension to all who are overseas IMHO.
In fact the only way the UK (and indeed most western countries) is going to be able to balance the pension books is to either massively increase migration and/or slash pension benefits.
Pensioners living overseas are the first target, next they'll bring in means testing.
Brown has already robbed billions from UK pension funds by taxing them, someone should shoot the bastard, where are Al-Quaida when you reed them?
In fact the only way the UK (and indeed most western countries) is going to be able to balance the pension books is to either massively increase migration and/or slash pension benefits.
Pensioners living overseas are the first target, next they'll bring in means testing.
Brown has already robbed billions from UK pension funds by taxing them, someone should shoot the bastard, where are Al-Quaida when you reed them?
Mar 18th 2010, 6:24 am
#73
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 9,316
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
It's not a scheme at all: I just make the point that - and it all has to be average - if someone earns say $10m in his lifetime he's increased community wealth by that amount. If he spends it all before he croaks and leaves nothing the community overall is no worse or better off - he's paid for his existence.
When capital is left on death it must mean that - again on average - he has earned more than he's spent living - and that "extra" has come from somewhere: the community.
I'm not putting this forward as a serious position, but it *is* a longterm problem with capitalism in a philosophical sense, and is one reason why ever-increasing consumption is seen as a good and necessary thing nowadays despite the obvious connection with the GFC.
When capital is left on death it must mean that - again on average - he has earned more than he's spent living - and that "extra" has come from somewhere: the community.
I'm not putting this forward as a serious position, but it *is* a longterm problem with capitalism in a philosophical sense, and is one reason why ever-increasing consumption is seen as a good and necessary thing nowadays despite the obvious connection with the GFC.
Wealth doesn't necessarily come from the community. If the person with $10m didn't make the $10m would the community be $10m richer? No. For the most part wealth is created not taken from a common pot. If the person decided not to create the $10m then the community as a whole would be poorer (because of reduced tax and trickle down).
Also, what does it matter if it's spent in this life or the next life. I would assume that the man's children will spend money at a faster rate than if they had not inherited the money.
Last edited by MartinLuther; Mar 18th 2010 at 6:26 am.
Mar 18th 2010, 8:54 am
#74
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 839
Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
So you aren't bitter, but you think I am ?
You try to bring my views on the price of property into the thread, but get it wrong anyway.
Then you mention the free dental care and cheap superior healthcare that the UK has...
And you accuse me of being childish...
Can you answer the question I am raising, or do you just wish to attack Australia ?
What is the difference between the British Expats in Australia and Canada who don't get it, and those in the USA who do get it ?
Without resorting to
My personal view is that no permanent resident outside the UK should get it. We have chosen to leave the UK, and we should have no rights in that respect.
In your view that makes me bitter ? It is OK for you to have your view, but when someone else does, you like to attack them ?
You try to bring my views on the price of property into the thread, but get it wrong anyway.
Then you mention the free dental care and cheap superior healthcare that the UK has...
And you accuse me of being childish...
Can you answer the question I am raising, or do you just wish to attack Australia ?
What is the difference between the British Expats in Australia and Canada who don't get it, and those in the USA who do get it ?
Without resorting to
My personal view is that no permanent resident outside the UK should get it. We have chosen to leave the UK, and we should have no rights in that respect.
In your view that makes me bitter ? It is OK for you to have your view, but when someone else does, you like to attack them ?
However most of your posts are about the wonders of Australia eg No charge today -re dentistry.
Your tirade about the pension ruling is hillarious ie ;it does not have the usual smugness of your normal offerings.
I said it before,it is unfair,but I don't think Australia really matters to anyone in the Northern hemisphere.It is a big goldfish bowl.
Oh! I'm not bitter at all-I just don't like living in Australia.
You're not getting the wonga and you're pissed off.
Tough luck old chap
Mar 18th 2010, 9:06 am
#75
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Location: Keep true friends and puppets close, trust no-one else...
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Re: UK expats lose pension freeze appeal
Really, then centerlink and the pensions dept must quote rubbish, links to the subject must also be rubbish, peoples experiences and posts on the subject must also be rubbish.
Among the many rules to claim a OZ aged pension you need to reside in OZ at the time of the claim, for 2 years prior to the date of the claim.
So as I said. If you go back to the UK unless you are already pension age or then NO you cant claim your aussie pension, no matter how many years you worked in OZ.
If you read up on the facts you might also discover many expats only discover this once they try to claim. Aussie Expats now living in asia are a classic example.
Among the many rules to claim a OZ aged pension you need to reside in OZ at the time of the claim, for 2 years prior to the date of the claim.
So as I said. If you go back to the UK unless you are already pension age or then NO you cant claim your aussie pension, no matter how many years you worked in OZ.
If you read up on the facts you might also discover many expats only discover this once they try to claim. Aussie Expats now living in asia are a classic example.