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The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

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The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Old Nov 14th 2016, 5:26 am
  #316  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
There's a big difference between recognising that people are stupid, and calling them it when asking for a vote. In essence Trump said to all of his supports "you are daft enough that I can lie to you, to your face", but he didn't say that.

And I actually think that it would be possible to get people to take onboard how little they knew and understood - but you'd have to be subtle about it.

Anyway, the point is understanding why they were stupid, not debating if you should call them that to their face.
No, the whole point of it is that the left have been deriding them as stupid, bigoted etc etc for having any other opinion than that of the left. They've been doing it for years. Now it's bitten them in the arse, and will continue to do so all the while they refuse to speak to these people on their terms. Their vote is exactly equal to yours, so I would suggest another angle if you want them to use it wisely. The left wing is supposed to have a soft spot for the working class for gawd's sake, they actually stand for nothing at the moment.

If subtlety is needed, I assume you won't be applying haha
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 7:38 am
  #317  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
No, the whole point of it is that the left have been deriding them as stupid, bigoted etc etc for having any other opinion than that of the left. They've been doing it for years. Now it's bitten them in the arse, and will continue to do so all the while they refuse to speak to these people on their terms. Their vote is exactly equal to yours, so I would suggest another angle if you want them to use it wisely. The left wing is supposed to have a soft spot for the working class for gawd's sake, they actually stand for nothing at the moment.

If subtlety is needed, I assume you won't be applying haha
I'm kind of wondering what the left actually stand for too.

The Brexit and Trump argument from a traditional left perspective is so weak, it can't even hold its own weight.

Its like they are arguing for open borders, which is fine, just say it, but I don't really think they know what they want.
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 7:50 am
  #318  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
There may well be a great deal of stupid people, stupid and irrational. How is it you think they'll feel about being called stupid and irrational, d'you think they'll take it on board or tell you to blow it out your arse? You may have the IQ advantage, but not much in the way of people skills is there?

A good leader knows how to deal with the whole population, not just the money men, and Trump has given them hope, no matter how misguided he struck a chord with them. Clinton gifted it to Trump by being a shite and un-trust worthy candidate, it really is that simple.

This two thirds you're talking about, wasn't in a poll was it? They tend to be fairly inaccurate.

The closest Labour has to an Alpha Male is Dianne Abbott, they're unelectable for the foreseeable.
Yes. Conservatives in power until at least 2025
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 8:28 am
  #319  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
You seem to be softening your stance. Is the evidence just overwhelming your weak argument?

So now he only likes rich Muslims but still a racist because he hates poor Muslims? Did he actually say that somewhere? Can you show me? I thought his intentions were to enforce stricker entry guidelines from countries or regions known as terror hotbeds? No?

(I would also like to know when a religion became a race)

(Was Hitler mentioned somewhere? Just quietly this is becoming laughable. Check out the gullible on BE ho ho ho)
He proposed a database and identity cards for American Muslims (mainly American born incidentally) but non-Muslims wouldn't be subjected to the same thing. Is that or is that not racist? Whatever his intention he said ban ALL.

You refer me to policies, try this:

Donald Trump Breaks Campaign Policies On Obamacare, Clinton Prosecution, and Muslim Ban
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 8:48 am
  #320  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

My husband and I developed this theory about Trump a few months ago and so far it seems to be fairly supported. We decided that Trump is much more astute than he presents himself as and than people realise. I think he did this because he knew that there are a lot of people who don't generally vote and/or are disaffected and looking for a message of "change". He played to that really well. He said outrageous things - so many of them! - and only ever seemed to gain popularity for it because people felt that doing so made him "more honest / genuine / powerful". But I think this is where he played people and played a much more disingenuous, low, and clever game than the Democrats. He adopted the motto "whatever it takes". A lot of people are quietly misogynist (that's part of misogyny - that it is widespread and generally unchallenged) and at best xenophobic (humans find difference unsettling) and he simply played to that, and did so very well. Had he been less of a clown / buffoon / improbable president I think the media would have lampooned him harder early on. He had some serious momentum before it was realised.

It makes me laugh when folk go on about his "honesty" and talk about supporting him BECAUSE Clinton is a "liar". One of the most significant issues people said they were going to vote for Trump on was Obama care. What did Trump promise pre-election? What is being revealed as a more likely reality now? How many other key issues will we see him massively and deliberately U-turn on in coming months? Most, would be my bet. And what will those who voted for him on those issues do to hold him to account? But oh boy, does the man (campaign) know how to turn a campaign on a few soundbites. Something the Democrats utterly failed to do.

The left might have accused Trump supporters of stupidity but that was because people swallowed soundbites without any apparent inclination to do any fact checking whatsoever. However, unless Trump really is an utter utter clot (and I don't think he is) then the cynical way he has played disaffected and disillusioned voters by making bold, ridiculous promises he has almost no chance of honouring shows that it is Trump who really considers the electorate stupid and played his game accordingly.

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
My politics is pretty central, but I'm leaning right nowadays
Moving to the right and making peace with the establishment: tends to happen to us as we get older

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Of course Trump lied, he's a politician now, but the fact that the people have stood up and said we've had enough is immensely pleasing to me. Clinton stood for no change, more of the same and lower class Americans have spoken. Good on em.
I think that underestimates their message. I think they said "we've had enough and we want better". The real argument is not whether people have had enough and will get something different but whether they will get better with Trump.

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
So there is a disconnect between what 5 mins of research would tell them, and the 'feels' that they had from the second hand car salesman.
Democracy is cynical. You need the soundbite, not the thought out policy or well considered argument: it's all about the soundbite.

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
I mean hell, still no bankers jailed for the GFC frauds, and no candidate proposing that they should be. They are the winners in all this misdirected rage.
Yes, they are.

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Sorry, but I think it is indeed the woman thing.
Aye. And he's allowed a lot of men to feel OK about "locker talk", i.e. bragging about using your power to sexually harass women plays to the alpha male card, which many many men and women like, albeit not always on an entirely conscious level. Cos "real men" when they are with other men like to talk about pussy grabbing and the sexual appeal of their daughters so we can all overlook that sort of stuff. Oh well.

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Anyway, the point is understanding why they were stupid, not debating if you should call them that to their face.
Agreed (see my rant above). But in the end I am inclined to blame the cynical system rather than the people. I think the Democrats should have run a better candidate and a better campaign. I thought both candidates were awful but I couldn't believe that so many people thought they were equivalently awful! I think the media made too much of whether Clinton did wrong with her email account, etc., and not enough of who was Trump, what was his past, and what was he really truly offering the voters before it was too late.

Oh well. Thank goodness it wasn't anything serious like an election for one of the most powerful positions in the world: phew!
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 9:15 am
  #321  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by OzTennis View Post
He proposed a database and identity cards for American Muslims (mainly American born incidentally) but non-Muslims wouldn't be subjected to the same thing. Is that or is that not racist? Whatever his intention he said ban ALL.

You refer me to policies, try this:

Donald Trump Breaks Campaign Policies On Obamacare, Clinton Prosecution, and Muslim Ban
Nope. Its not racist, nor is it a policy. I think the word you are looking for is discrimination - not racism. A self proclaimed scholar as yourself should know this.

Islam has had a history of violent radicalism. If you want to sweep that under the carpet to act PC more fool you.

Governments on a daily basis create policies which upset certain groups in order to protect the wider population. There's a vast group of the population who like taking drugs. To protect the wider population they suffer discrimination.

As I have said in the past, I would rather ideas be presented by politicians and adjusted over time to suit what's best.

A statement from a year ago clearly followed that path of adjustment. If Trump chooses to modify his views on Muslim immigrants, Obamacare, and every other policy, that's his call.

I would rather be living under a leader who has the ability to be strong but at the same time has the ability to adapt.

Wouldn't you?
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 9:20 am
  #322  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by bourbon-biscuit View Post
Democracy is cynical. You need the soundbite, not the thought out policy or well considered argument: it's all about the soundbite.
Which is part of the point when I say democracy is a failure. If democracy can't deliver a person with a well considered plan that they can bring about - then it doesn't work.

Democracy is supposed to have responsibilities on the voter to consider carefully the candidates, their plans, and make a sober judgement on which is best. Wisdom of crowds. Instead, we have people taken in by the second hand car salesman who doesn't even hide how poor a choice he is and how much he's lying. And the republican party as a whole is as bad - Pence is if anything more insane and Ryan wants to end medicare.

"Orangutan driving a clown car" - it's an apt description.

The voter stupidity is induced - by media not covering the interminable run up seriously and thoughtfully. If they actually, carefully, made a rational decision, with all the facts and none of the bull, it might work. But as it is ....
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 9:33 am
  #323  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Nope. Its not racist, nor is it a policy. I think the word you are looking for is discrimination - not racism. A self proclaimed scholar as yourself should know this.

Islam has had a history of violent radicalism. If you want to sweep that under the carpet to act PC more fool you.

Governments on a daily basis create policies which upset certain groups in order to protect the wider population. There's a vast group of the population who like taking drugs. To protect the wider population they suffer discrimination.

As I have said in the past, I would rather ideas be presented by politicians and adjusted over time to suit what's best.

A statement from a year ago clearly followed that path of adjustment. If Trump chooses to modify his views on Muslim immigrants, Obamacare, and every other policy, that's his call.

I would rather be living under a leader who has the ability to be strong but at the same time has the ability to adapt.

Wouldn't you?
At least I check before I shoot my mouth off - the definition of racism is "the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races" or "discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race." ... Both racism and discrimination are nouns meaning a person is able to possess such attitudes.

Don't you think that one of the major problems facing the USA is the murder rate by American on American and this is directly related to the gun lobby? Personally I'd be more worried about the amount of people with guns bought at the local candy store than a perceived threat from muslim extremists. Do some research on the murder rate in the US and tell me what proportion is down to the threat the likes of Trump would use a sledgehammer to crack (Muslim extremists).

It was a bit amusing that there were shouts of 'the guy's got a gun' at the Trump rally and he was rushed off stage only to find the guy had a poster. It was the guy's right to carry arms at a Trump rally surely?

The Mexicans whom Trump so depises - some of them (not all of them) make many billions catering for the US drug problem. I didn't hear Trump spouting about how he'd deal with that, rather he makes stupid comments about the suppliers and groups THE Mexicans into one category.
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 9:34 am
  #324  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Which is part of the point when I say democracy is a failure. If democracy can't deliver a person with a well considered plan that they can bring about - then it doesn't work.

Democracy is supposed to have responsibilities on the voter to consider carefully the candidates, their plans, and make a sober judgement on which is best. Wisdom of crowds. Instead, we have people taken in by the second hand car salesman who doesn't even hide how poor a choice he is and how much he's lying. And the republican party as a whole is as bad - Pence is if anything more insane and Ryan wants to end medicare.

"Orangutan driving a clown car" - it's an apt description.

The voter stupidity is induced - by media not covering the interminable run up seriously and thoughtfully. If they actually, carefully, made a rational decision, with all the facts and none of the bull, it might work. But as it is ....
Twenty two pages on and you are still insisting that anybody who doesn't think the same way as you doesn't think at all. You think you are smart yet you are utterly incapable of grasping the very simple concept that somebody might have a different view than you and it doesn't make then stupid and it doesn't mean they haven't thought about the issue at hand.

Having said that. I would dispute that democracy means voters have to do certain things in order to participate. I cannot find any definition of democracy that outlines what a participant has to do, other than select a representative.
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 10:00 am
  #325  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by Bermudashorts View Post
Twenty two pages on and you are still insisting that anybody who doesn't think the same way as you doesn't think at all. You think you are smart yet you are utterly incapable of grasping the very simple concept that somebody might have a different view than you and it doesn't make then stupid and it doesn't mean they haven't thought about the issue at hand.
And twenty pages on you are still misrepresenting and avoiding the point of what I'm saying.

It's not different viewpoints, that's a given. It's that there's no debate about certain facts, facts which mean Trump shouldn't even have been in the contest - and shouldn't have been voted for by anyone but the clinically insane.

Difference of opinion is if you paint the nursery blue or pink - not if using five sticks of dynamite to blow it apart is a good idea.
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 11:17 am
  #326  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
I'm kind of wondering what the left actually stand for too.

The Brexit and Trump argument from a traditional left perspective is so weak, it can't even hold its own weight.

Its like they are arguing for open borders, which is fine, just say it, but I don't really think they know what they want.
With a bit of luck you won't be wondering to much longer. Open borders more a right wing, Conservative manifesto surely? In the Australian context, both parties sadly signed up to the Big Australia illness.


The right and economics before people. Rich before the majority. All rumbled I'm afraid along with a host of other things. (like minimalizing tax to business, ) The weakness is clear and change is in the air.
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 11:20 am
  #327  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by Amazulu View Post
Pathetic - and trying to squirm out of your ridiculous position

You are trying to draw comparisons between Hitler and Trump - which is quite patently bizarre

Attempting to change the subject doesn't alter this fact
Trump is great. The boring status quo has been , hopefully broken. Do your worst Trump. Then let's clear the decks for real change.
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 12:28 pm
  #328  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Trump is great. The boring status quo has been , hopefully broken. Do your worst Trump. Then let's clear the decks for real change.
Details

The question is - is Trump comparable to Adolf Hitler?

And the answer is an emphatic no - unless you are a total f**kwit

Last edited by Amazulu; Nov 14th 2016 at 12:32 pm.
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 12:31 pm
  #329  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
There's a big difference between recognising that people are stupid, and calling them it when asking for a vote. In essence Trump said to all of his supports "you are daft enough that I can lie to you, to your face", but he didn't say that.

And I actually think that it would be possible to get people to take onboard how little they knew and understood - but you'd have to be subtle about it.

Anyway, the point is understanding why they were stupid, not debating if you should call them that to their face.
At times the electorate can act like sheep - sheeple

Re the election of Blair, Gillard, Rudd, Obama etc

In the cases of Brexit and Trump. I'd say that the electorate is thinking - but not thinking in the way that you would like
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Old Nov 14th 2016, 12:36 pm
  #330  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
and shouldn't have been voted for by anyone but the clinically insane.
Sounds like the election of K Rudd in 2007

Replacing a competent government with someone who was the antithesis of competence - who ended up driving our nation into debt and causing over 1000 deaths at sea

Change for change's sake
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