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The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

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The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Old Jul 5th 2017, 11:57 am
  #1501  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
You are doing the false equivalence dance.

The reality is the lite right in the US (the democrats aren't left wing) have bent over backwards to meet the repubs in the middle. Why do you think the affordable care act kept the insurance industry, rather than going single payer? Why do you think labor were pushing for the carbon market in Australia, rather than simply curtailing carbon pollution? They have been overly accommodating to the far right.

And what happens?

Those far right vermin turn round and screw them; killing obamacare in the US without anything to replace it; and in Australia having abbott go back on his professed policies for political game playing and call it a "carbon tax on business".

They aren't equivalent, not even close. The fault lies solely with the far right and their destructive, corrupt, behaviour.

Hence why I say it's pointless to try to come to an agreed middle way position with them. They are fundamentally unfit, incompetent, and you need to force through the real policies that are needed, and then slam their fingers in the door when they try to steal.

For all his faults, Corbyn has realised a fundamental fact - you can't reason with the far right. They will take your olive branch and attempt to force it where the sun don't shine.
-By American historical and current standards the Democrats would be considered to the left of the political spectrum.
- When I see words like "vermin" used and "solely" the fault of one side I I question how objective the opinions being expressed are, or whether when such words are being used that they indicate an open mind.
- The problem is the Democrats and Republicans aren't cooperating with each other.
-Corrupt ? Considering the huge amounts of money received by the Clinton campaign and the "pay to play" way Washington works, I would guess both parties evidence such corruption- which is to be expected with how much the government in involved in the economy.I mean really , considering all the costs and taxes Clinton wished to impose on business, all the donations were not meant because they believed in Clinton, obviously for influence, and same for donations to Republicans.
-I doubt the far left is any more reasonable the right.
- I agree it is the height of intellectual bankruptcy and elitism for the Republicans to not provide a decent alternative to Obamacare. But the ultimate issues is out of control medical costs which neither party has the political will to confront. And just as intellectual bankrupt for Democrats to fight efforts to have border control.

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Old Jul 5th 2017, 1:05 pm
  #1502  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
-I doubt the far left is any more reasonable the right.
As I pointed out, you are doing the false equivalency dance.

For a start the democrats aren't far left. They are, in reality, lite right, probably only slightly to the left of the tories.

And secondly, they have been, over decades, far more willing to be conciliatory and work with the other side (something I don't think is a good idea). And the key point is each time, they have gotten screwed over. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to say the republicans are unredeemable, that's what the evidence says. As time moves on, they get worse. They are now downright evil - and it's wrong not to recognise that. That's nothing to do with partisan politics, it has to do with recognising things for what they are.

And I think they need to be much less forgiving, much less what you think is a good idea. I think they need to really take control when they get control of the house etc. and push through the changes needed.

As a for instance, they didn't change the required majority needed in the house, throughout their 8 years there, because they didn't want to upset the balance. Five seconds after the republicans didn't have the numbers to push through policy under those rules with trump in the chair, they had changed them so they could. The GOP is not interested in playing fair, balance, etc.

As I say, you are living in a fantasy land of false equivalency - and the democrats need to be much less reasonable. For a start they need to jail many of the GOP, federal and local, for the behaviours they have shown. Not just trump and all his cronies, but many of the house GOP and the gerrymandering GOP in the states.

That's how you pull this back - you don't play 'fair', you play 'justice'.
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Old Jul 5th 2017, 1:24 pm
  #1503  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Happy birthday Murica



It's leftard trigger time
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Old Jul 5th 2017, 5:55 pm
  #1504  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
As I pointed out, you are doing the false equivalency dance.

For a start the democrats aren't far left. They are, in reality, lite right, probably only slightly to the left of the tories.

And secondly, they have been, over decades, far more willing to be conciliatory and work with the other side (something I don't think is a good idea). And the key point is each time, they have gotten screwed over. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to say the republicans are unredeemable, that's what the evidence says. As time moves on, they get worse. They are now downright evil - and it's wrong not to recognise that. That's nothing to do with partisan politics, it has to do with recognising things for what they are.

And I think they need to be much less forgiving, much less what you think is a good idea. I think they need to really take control when they get control of the house etc. and push through the changes needed.

As a for instance, they didn't change the required majority needed in the house, throughout their 8 years there, because they didn't want to upset the balance. Five seconds after the republicans didn't have the numbers to push through policy under those rules with trump in the chair, they had changed them so they could. The GOP is not interested in playing fair, balance, etc.

As I say, you are living in a fantasy land of false equivalency - and the democrats need to be much less reasonable. For a start they need to jail many of the GOP, federal and local, for the behaviours they have shown. Not just trump and all his cronies, but many of the house GOP and the gerrymandering GOP in the states.

That's how you pull this back - you don't play 'fair', you play 'justice'.
You are talking like a man who hasn't got his way.

Trump is not right wing, he's not conventional in any way shape or form. This is a good thing.

If you and your mates stopped taking pot shots, he would have nothing to deflect, steering attention away from his job.

Instead he's getting the results, all while you guys keep focussing the attention on twitter, fake tan, and silly CNN v Trump videos.

He's got the left wing clowns by the short and curly's - hook line and sinker.
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Old Jul 5th 2017, 8:20 pm
  #1505  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
As I pointed out, you are doing the false equivalency dance.

For a start the democrats aren't far left. They are, in reality, lite right, probably only slightly to the left of the tories.

And secondly, they have been, over decades, far more willing to be conciliatory and work with the other side (something I don't think is a good idea). And the key point is each time, they have gotten screwed over. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to say the republicans are unredeemable, that's what the evidence says. As time moves on, they get worse. They are now downright evil - and it's wrong not to recognise that. That's nothing to do with partisan politics, it has to do with recognising things for what they are.

And I think they need to be much less forgiving, much less what you think is a good idea. I think they need to really take control when they get control of the house etc. and push through the changes needed.

As a for instance, they didn't change the required majority needed in the house, throughout their 8 years there, because they didn't want to upset the balance. Five seconds after the republicans didn't have the numbers to push through policy under those rules with trump in the chair, they had changed them so they could. The GOP is not interested in playing fair, balance, etc.

As I say, you are living in a fantasy land of false equivalency - and the democrats need to be much less reasonable. For a start they need to jail many of the GOP, federal and local, for the behaviours they have shown. Not just trump and all his cronies, but many of the house GOP and the gerrymandering GOP in the states.

That's how you pull this back - you don't play 'fair', you play 'justice'.
I think perhaps fantasy-land more aptly describes the idea of jailing republicans or saying that they are evil- same sort of mentality as many far right theories about Obama or even Clinton.

Push through changes that are needed ? I don't see much of a bold and comprehensive vision any more in the democrat party than the republic party.

Perhaps if Sanders were leading things, and democrats could find someone with a basic understanding of economics geared towards providing an economy that works for the working poor and working class, a dramatic change could be made. Or if Rand Paul could work with someone like Sanders. Otherwise I don't see either party turning things around.

And as under both democrat and republic presidents hundreds of billions spent on a war(s) with restrictive rules of engagement, with no real end in sight, the rot just continues.
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Old Jul 6th 2017, 1:14 am
  #1506  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by morpeth View Post
Perhaps if Sanders were leading things, and democrats could find someone with a basic understanding of economics geared towards providing an economy that works for the working poor and working class, a dramatic change could be made.
Oh I agree there is a lot more they could be doing. Remember I pointed out they were lite right, cousins to the tories. Of course they could do better - by not being so right wing.

However, it's false equivalence to say they are the left part of some political spectrum, balanced with the GOP. They are the acceptable face of right wing politics, the GOP is just plain antisocial, incompetent, loony extreme right face of corrupt politics.

And the important part is that they are a cancer that has to be cut out. You can't fix that, you can't work with that, it's never going to be rectified - it needs to go.
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Old Jul 6th 2017, 3:16 am
  #1507  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Instead he's getting the results
Ok. I have been asking about what those anti HClinton and now have Trump instead make of the USA administration performance to date , both on home ground & internationally & so far getting a nil response really.

So. What results is he getting please?

Not talking about the media stuff. I mean actual policy , mandates , agreements , protocols, accords and the like.

What has he and his admin done to 'get results' ?
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Old Jul 6th 2017, 3:29 am
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
Ok. I have been asking about what those anti HClinton and now have Trump instead make of the USA administration performance to date , both on home ground & internationally & so far getting a nil response really.

So. What results is he getting please?

Not talking about the media stuff. I mean actual policy , mandates , agreements , protocols, accords and the like.

What has he and his admin done to 'get results' ?
That doesn't include things that have happened as a result of the previous administration's actions.
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Old Jul 6th 2017, 3:33 am
  #1509  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
Ok. I have been asking about what those anti HClinton and now have Trump instead make of the USA administration performance to date , both on home ground & internationally & so far getting a nil response really.

So. What results is he getting please?

Not talking about the media stuff. I mean actual policy , mandates , agreements , protocols, accords and the like.

What has he and his admin done to 'get results' ?
Originally Posted by moneypenny20 View Post
That doesn't include things that have happened as a result of the previous administration's actions.
No. It doesn't.

What has this man and his chosen admin so far achieved . Global stage/Homeland.
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Old Jul 6th 2017, 4:10 am
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
No. It doesn't.

What has this man and his chosen admin so far achieved . Global stage/Homeland.
Post 1495.

You can sell it all you want that it was the previous administrations doing but so what ..... he will take the credit. Unemployment continues to fall under Trump.

He makes some other claims. Feel free to look into them. I have not.

It the end of the day his biggest disaster might be his inability to woooo the left wing media. If it were May or Turnbull in his shoes they would just go quiet and let it blow over. Not Trump, he goes on the attack. Good for him. Left wing media is scum.
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Old Jul 6th 2017, 5:02 am
  #1511  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by Beoz View Post
Post 1495.
I did look up that post & thought I might see something concrete but it doesn't seem to answer my question to you about this

Originally Posted by Boez
Instead he's getting the results
I can read any amount of claims anywhere. I can read his claims about him and his admin . For that matter I can read anyone's but that wasn't what I was after. I was actually asking you about what you yourself saw as him 'getting the results'.

I did also write that I wasn't asking about his media presence but his actual policies & results etc.
Not about a previous administrations policies and results which are past and on record.

You wrote that Trump is getting results. Which . What. Where.

As I wrote to the other thread , I am actually genuinely interested to know what those in favour of this admin and this US president actually see as happening for the good of both international relations and stage and also the US nation itself.

Originally Posted by Boez
Not Trump, he goes on the attack. Good for him.
Right. On the attack about what and how does that get 'results' for the US nation and the rest of the world in your view.

When you write attacks are you talking about the disregard for international diplomacy , agreements, accords ?

Yes. Of course I see plenty of him ballyhooing and posturing but what is that actually achieving .

For some reason it seems to be quite hard to get anything but an obscure response.

Last edited by BEVS; Jul 6th 2017 at 5:05 am.
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Old Jul 6th 2017, 5:16 am
  #1512  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
No. It doesn't.

What has this man and his chosen admin so far achieved . Global stage/Homeland.
Since you aren't getting an answer from Beoz :
  • Well, you have withdrawing from the Transpacific Partnership trade deal.
  • And withdrawing from the Paris Climate accords.
  • He's failed to 'protect american jobs', with his headline funding of Carrier jobs unraveling and workers getting made redundant anyway.
  • His wall is stalled/dead, since no money is there for it. However he has made US immigration even worse, and created a drop in visitors, hurting tourism revenues.
  • He got the far right justice into the supreme court, but only after changing how voting was undertaken (would have failed if they hadn't moved goalposts).
  • Killing Obamacare is still in train, mainly because they have nothing to replace it and even their voters like it.
  • Jobs remains in the same vein as under Obama, early days yet.
  • Oh, and his approval rating have shot up ...... in russia.
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Old Jul 6th 2017, 5:36 am
  #1513  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Since you aren't getting an answer from Beoz :
Well, I might. I only just posted a bit ago & he is offline at the moment.

Perhaps I should rephrase a bit as I did in the other thread.

Quoting myself a little:

Boez. Do you think DTrump/ this admin will somehow bring some sort of change or shift for the better? By better, I mean on the global stage as well as his nation. If so, what is it that you see that he is doing that is so far achieving this ? Do you believe this to be his aim?

I can only repeat , I am genuinely interested to see through the eyes of someone who feels that DTrump and his admin will improve our world.
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Old Jul 6th 2017, 5:54 am
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
I can only repeat , I am genuinely interested to see through the eyes of someone who feels that DTrump and his admin will improve our world.
You can look in on where they hang out if you want (though don't try to post, they will ban you). They don't tend to give nuanced discussion on the benefits of trump policies; rather they act as an echo chamber for whatever the talking point of the day is (at present it's CNN).

For instance, if you search for what has recently been said on employment, you won't find anything about job data, but rather some imagined contract of employment that Comey is supposed to have broken.

It's strange, warped, and IN UPPERCASE just about all the time.

Here you go : https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald
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Old Jul 6th 2017, 7:36 am
  #1515  
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Default Re: The Trumpmare is happening... Who will win?

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
Well, I might. I only just posted a bit ago & he is offline at the moment.

Perhaps I should rephrase a bit as I did in the other thread.

Quoting myself a little:

Boez. Do you think DTrump/ this admin will somehow bring some sort of change or shift for the better? By better, I mean on the global stage as well as his nation. If so, what is it that you see that he is doing that is so far achieving this ? Do you believe this to be his aim?

I can only repeat , I am genuinely interested to see through the eyes of someone who feels that DTrump and his admin will improve our world.
Correct. On a plane. No internet. But of course, left wingers will use the absence for any reason. Its how they roll.

Like Garry can copy and paste from any old left wing rag, you can also do the same. The trick is cutting through the crap to find a bit of balance. Try this. Its not all roses and nor should it be but it ties in some good with some bad.

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-first-100-days-how-compare-obama-bush-clinton-2017-4/#more-laws-fewer-words-1

As for your questions, firstly I am no Trump supporter but given the 2 horse race, he was and is cleary better than Hil.

We might find Trump hits the nuke button, most left wingers are hoping for that, but we also might find that Trump blows the political landscape out of the water. He is not conventional, he is not from a political background, he doesn't play by the rules. This in my opinion is great going forward for the future of politics.

He will no doubt make some bad decisions along with way, but he will also make some good ones. Is building a wall along one of the most porous, drug riddled borders on earth really a bad thing? Really ... is it? Focus on the purpose of the wall itself, not something CNN wants you to believe.
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