Beoz

Is that the best you have? Your glory revolves around teaching. So sad.

By the way, you don't need to aquire Australian citizenship if you are born with it. Your assumptions are all over that place.

OzTennis

Interesting point you raise. It's a generalisation but there is a tendency for there to be a 'guilt society' in the west (and christian religions) whereas in the east, China and Japan especially, (buddhism, confucianism etc) it is a 'shame society'. A cultural/religious thing. In simple terms the reason the Japanese took so long to admit their war guilt is the shame that would come with it. A westerner tends not to think along those lines. Mind you it took until 2008 for Kevin Rudd to apologise to the stolen generations and yet there was an outcry from some quarters of 'what for?'

It's a giant leap though to hint (I'm not suggesting you) that we should not feel guilt in the west because they don't seem to in the east. There's no excuse in the context of the way we think now to excuse slavery, transportation, mass executions, compulsorily acquiring land and wealth which took place in the name of the British, Dutch, French, Italian, Spanish etc crowns. The 'it happened, get over it, move on' argument tends to ignore the lessons we can learn from past mistakes.

The argument that native people were brought 'superior culture' and they should be grateful ignores that this was done by force and without consulting these people as to whether they wanted it or not*. A man who forces himself on a woman justifies with the same logic - this will do you a lot of good, I know what's best for you.

*

Amazulu

What a stupid picture and yet more revisionist nonsense. There was never going to be any 'consulation' FFS. It was a case of accept colonisation and the benefits that it would bring or die. That's how it was done - winner takes all

Not my fault, I wasn't there BTW

OzTennis

I know how it was done then, I know you weren't there, I know you weren't to blame, I know there was no consul(t)ation (nor consolation) then..... zzz. The fact that you think it is a 'stupid picture' shows that can only look at everything from the viewpoint of the original boat people. It's no surprise that you look at modern issues in a similar manner

It's both interesting and shocking (to me) to see what Churchill said about colonialism: “I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place”.

A modern commentator on this said 'we hopefully know today, that there is no higher-grade race, the question is are we going to fake blindness or see history for what it really is.'

The funny thing is that the same Churchill signed the Atlantic Treaty with Roosevelt in 1941 to set out a blueprint for a post war international system. It included decolonisation - the right of the colonised people to independence - and was the forerunner to the United Nations - which tries to promote world peace and stop acts of aggression and invasion.

A few discussion points, hope it helps.

knockoff nige

Points well made. What's disturbing about this discussion though is how some people say 'I wasn't there, I'm not at fault' but are so grateful that someone was and someone did carry out the slaughter for them. I can't help but think they would have encouraged it if they were there.

Do I enjoy the life that it gave me? Yes. But I don't accept that it's all in the past. Cultures and lives have been ruined and we should still be working at repaying our debt. It's just too easy to call it someone elses problem and that aboriginals should get over it.

scrubbedexpat098

Apologist nonsense, Beoz is absolutely right with his WW2 comparison and his granddad being slaughtered. Does he bear a grudge against Germans? No. Does he want an apology from Germans? No. You can burden yourself with guilt all you like, but I notice you're not so guilt ridden that you leave Australia and give it back to the Aboriginals. You want a decent future? Dispense with black fella, white fella, lebbo, pom blah blah blah and use the term Australian. That will never happen all the while the past is being dug up in an attempt to make us all hate ourselves.

knockoff nige

Listen mate, it's YOU who keeps using the word 'apologise'. I'm not expecting anyone hear to do apologise. An apology doesn't do anything anyway.

And I don't know why you think the world is against you and that you must hate yourself. I've certainly never suggested that. But to sympathise with those who carried out the slaughter by calling it a good thing is disgusting.

Also, I feel no guilt. Why should I? Like you, I had nothing to do with slaughter of thousands of innocent people. I'm prepared to accept that as an appalling act though and something we should be trying to make amends for.

The culprits aren't here to be held to account for what they did. But if they were, they wouldn't be punished, would they?

Also, I don't have any hatred or bitterness to England or it's people and I don't look for an apology from any English person. You and your right wing mates are too quick to jump to conclusions from what anyone who is less right wing than you.

Beoz

And the victims aren't here either.

Still, what do you want from all this?

You do realise you haven't accepted it otherwise you would let it go. By bringing up points in history that in todays world are considered unsavoury, you only breed hatred rather than unity.

The left wing have a lot of hatred to answer for.

scrubbedexpat098

Guess what, if you did have any hatred or bitterness toward England, all you're doing is perpetuating the hatred by keeping long gone times alive. I was once having a beer with an Irish pal of mine, he said 'I never thought I'd be sitting at a bar in Wollongong having a beer with an English c@@t' my reply? 'how about just having a beer with a mate? Bring up the Irish/English thing again in that tone, then we aint pals no more'. That's what you call putting the past behind you, you should try it.

How'd you go with your time machine?

knockoff nige

I made the point about England's invasion and slaughter in Ireland to answer your question. Looks like you want to use it as ammo. Your Irish pal was being ignorant and rude. I have never looked at an English person as someone who took part in Ireland's history of slaughter by the English.

GarryP

In the past people tend to take a more brutal, barbaric, trump-like attitude to things. It was usually by those with power on those without - and particular by the rich on the poor ("steal a loaf of bread because you are staving, it's transportation for 7 years for you"). It's no surprise that they tended to take what they wanted from peoples who were way down on the civilisation scale.

Saying that, the truism is that if you were going to get colonised by someone (and let's be honest, Australia wasn't going to go to waste forever), you wanted to get colonised by the British, rather than one of the other alternatives. You tended to benefit from the bias towards 'fair play' and the governance legacy.

The critical factor that tends to not get mentioned however, is that the eventual outcome was very dependent on how your group reacted to getting colonised. Some flourished and got to jump up the civilisational scale, and some got stomped on. That was usually dependent on how much you thought you could 'fight'.

Today, we are supposed to be more enlightened, with universal human rights etc. such that we aren't supposed to go in and impose on a culture and take away the goodies (we still do, obviously, particularly the chinese). However if you spend your time looking backwards you both never have a point to stop (should the italians be paying reparations for the romans?) and you aren't looking towards the future - which is the key point. The best bet is to just stop behaving like a dickhead today and move forward.

And on the subject of dickheads ...

An amazing moment in history: Donald Trump's press conference - CNNPolitics.com

... he really has no connection with reality, does he?

scrubbedexpat098

, ****ing hell haha

scrubbedexpat098

You must actually have a time machine, you made your post about the English slaughter of the Irish before I asked the question.

Yes my pal was being a twat, and we're still pals because he realised it. By the same token however, aren't all people whose ancestors copped the shitty end of the stick being twats by insisting on bringing the matter up?

It's been said before, but there's no lasting peace until you learn to let go of the past. To insist on reparation for wrong doins in the past, only shifts the resentment to the 'other side' and gives the hate more legs. You say heartless right wing scumbag, I say forgive and forget, let's face the future together. I'm happy with my stance

knockoff nige

Go and review the thread and see for yourself that you asked the question and I responded.

Isn't there is still a divide in Australia caused undeniably by the invasion and slaughter. The country hasn't healed and there is still plenty to do. But you have a comfy chair to sit in and have lost nothing so it's very easy for you to be happy with your stance. And I'm not surprised that you don't see it as an ignorant one. I feel like i need to suffix this post with 'Yes I know it wasn't you' because of how quick you are to jump to silly assumptions.

scrubbedexpat098

Reviewed it, I'm right and you're wrong, have a re-read yourself.

To go forward as a nation of Australians, not black, white whatever Australians is an ignorant stance?? You're beyond help. If the country is having trouble healing, it's because of people keep picking the scabs.