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Time to arm UK patrol cops

Time to arm UK patrol cops

Old Sep 22nd 2012, 5:21 am
  #136  
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Originally Posted by geordiebloke View Post
Why, would you have been shot
no not that bad - I'm just trying to point out that cops are human and make mistakes the same as you and me. Instead of looking to arm police with guns, lets try and get the illegal ones off our streets.
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 6:45 am
  #137  
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Originally Posted by chris955 View Post
Well you are a better judge than me if you can declare them totally innocent by what you read in that story. As Polly has said there is invariably more to these stories and the fact that the Daily Mail aren't privy to the details is largely irrelevant.
The guilt or innocence of the persons who are killed by police is irrelevant, for the bleeding obvious reason that armed police officers don't know who is innocent and who is guilty, and because it's not their role to decide whether to use force based on whether they like the person in front of them.

What is relevant is whether the force was used in an reasonable manner in the moment and in the context of the events leading up to that moment. What often emerges in coronial inquests (as indeed happened in the de Menezes, Ashley and Tomlinson inquests and subsequent investigations) is that police officers act negligently, recklessly or maliciously before and during a death, don't use force reasonably, and collude to cover it up afterwards. And part of the coverup attempts often involve spreading innuendo and lies, <<snip>>, the Chief Constable Paul Whitehouse (who claimed Ashley had been wanted for murder), Sherree Bissett (who killed Adam Salter, linked to above) and her supposed investigator have done.

It's just nonsense to somehow suggest that it doesn't matter too much if the police kill people because they were probably guilty of something or other.

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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 7:08 am
  #138  
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Originally Posted by lapin_windstar View Post
The guilt or innocence of the persons who are killed by police is irrelevant, for the bleeding obvious reason that armed police officers don't know who is innocent and who is guilty, and because it's not their role to decide whether to use force based on whether they like the person in front of them.

What is relevant is whether the force was used in an reasonable manner in the moment and in the context of the events leading up to that moment. What often emerges in coronial inquests (as indeed happened in the de Menezes, Ashley and Tomlinson inquests and subsequent investigations) is that police officers act negligently, recklessly or maliciously before and during a death, don't use force reasonably, and collude to cover it up afterwards. And part of the coverup attempts often involve spreading innuendo and lies, as <snip>, the Chief Constable Paul Whitehouse (who claimed Ashley had been wanted for murder), Sherree Bissett (who killed Adam Salter, linked to above) and her supposed investigator have done.

It's just nonsense to somehow suggest that it doesn't matter too much if the police kill people because they were probably guilty of something or other.
The public have a right to complete transparency when comes to any police shooting and indeed the increased scrutiny that is placed on the military during active service these days.
This is more likely to occur if the public have more realistic expectations and a greater understanding of what human beings go through in these situations.
Of course, the police should be accountable for their actions, but when people use emotive terms such as "murder" when clearly it's not, you are more inclined to find that people will not be as forthcoming with the complete truth.
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 8:53 am
  #139  
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Rubbish, I have it on good authority he was totally innocent.

Originally Posted by Pollyana View Post
I'm still bound by the Official Secrets Act, so lets just say James Ashley wasn't someone I'd want to go out drinking with.
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 11:39 am
  #140  
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Originally Posted by chris955 View Post
Rubbish, I have it on good authority he was totally innocent.
All I said was I didn't want to go drinking with him - a statement which applies to an awful lot of people - including many on BE
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 11:47 am
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops



Originally Posted by Pollyana View Post
All I said was I didn't want to go drinking with him - a statement which applies to an awful lot of people - including many on BE
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 12:12 pm
  #142  
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Lets be honest about it, how many of those shot by the police were NOT on their radar for their criminal past?

I don't know the answer I don't know who the people in the list are, but apart from De Menenez who was as I have said an unfortunate victim of circumstance, were there any other ordinary Joe Publics among them?

Like I said, bad things tend to happen to bad people.
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 3:19 pm
  #143  
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Originally Posted by Pit Bull. View Post
Lets be honest about it, how many of those shot by the police were NOT on their radar for their criminal past?

I don't know the answer I don't know who the people in the list are, but apart from De Menenez who was as I have said an unfortunate victim of circumstance, were there any other ordinary Joe Publics among them?

Like I said, bad things tend to happen to bad people.
Lets be honest, there are an awful lot of people with some sort of criminal record so it doesn't matter if they get shot Get Real!

Bad things happen to bad people, but bad things happen to good people too. In the split second it takes to fire a gun, I'm sure no-ones getting your life history.
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 3:47 pm
  #144  
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Originally Posted by old.sparkles View Post
Lets be honest, there are an awful lot of people with some sort of criminal record so it doesn't matter if they get shot Get Real!

Bad things happen to bad people, but bad things happen to good people too. In the split second it takes to fire a gun, I'm sure no-ones getting your life history.

Well I don't have a criminal record and the point I was making is we're these people innocent people with no previous criminal behaviour, or were they high on the police radar, I think it's a fair question, I'm not saying its right what the police have done, I don't know the circumstances, but I feel there's little or no chance that the armed police will be kicking my door in, in the early hours, or are you saying that's what happened to these people? That's what I am asking, do you know?
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 3:58 pm
  #145  
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Originally Posted by Pit Bull. View Post
Well I don't have a criminal record and the point I was making is we're these people innocent people with no previous criminal behaviour, or were they high on the police radar, I think it's a fair question, I'm not saying its right what the police have done, I don't know the circumstances, but I feel there's little or no chance that the armed police will be kicking my door in, in the early hours, or are you saying that's what happened to these people? That's what I am asking, do you know?
And I also have no criminal record and it didn't stop the pollice kicking my door down. And that is NO criminal record whatsoever!

Edit - Was going to add info, but willnot cos I'm too angry right now
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 4:02 pm
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Originally Posted by old.sparkles View Post
And I also have no criminal record and it didn't stop the pollice kicking my door down. And that is NO criminal record whatsoever!

Edit - Was going to add info, but willnot cos I'm too angry right now
I can see why you are angry with that happening to you, I'm not sticking up for the police, I have suffered their Ire in the past myself.
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 4:08 pm
  #147  
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Originally Posted by Pit Bull. View Post
I can see why you are angry with that happening to you, I'm not sticking up for the police, I have suffered their Ire in the past myself.
Sorry if it sounded like I was taking it out on you - I can see that you see my point and that maybe things happen because they happen - not cos you are a good person or a bad person. Police are human, they make mistakes. I agree that they often realise their mistakes long before they admit them. But a mistake with a gun is one that's not so easily taken back or repaired.
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 4:18 pm
  #148  
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Originally Posted by old.sparkles View Post
Sorry if it sounded like I was taking it out on you - I can see that you see my point and that maybe things happen because they happen - not cos you are a good person or a bad person. Police are human, they make mistakes. I agree that they often realise their mistakes long before they admit them. But a mistake with a gun is one that's not so easily taken back or repaired.
I know what you are saying, I was just trying to find out about the cases, I don't recall the police ever being convicted of shooting someone in cold murder, I recall some mistakes, but I don't recall it being a totally unknown member of the public being shot apart from De Menenez, maybe there has that's what I'm asking. Usually it's a well known Crim who they go in to arrest and I recall them shooting them, even though they weren't armed, but I don't recall a not known to the police member of the public being shot, I might be wrong though.
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 4:24 pm
  #149  
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Originally Posted by Pit Bull. View Post
I know what you are saying, I was just trying to find out about the cases, I don't recall the police ever being convicted of shooting someone in cold murder, I recall some mistakes, but I don't recall it being a totally unknown member of the public being shot apart from De Menenez, maybe there has that's what I'm asking. Usually it's a well known Crim who they go in to arrest and I recall them shooting them, even though they weren't armed, but I don't recall a not known to the police member of the public being shot, I might be wrong though.
So are you still saying that if the police shoot someone, as long as they have a criminal record its okay?
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Old Sep 22nd 2012, 4:26 pm
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Default Re: Time to arm UK patrol cops

Originally Posted by old.sparkles View Post
But having been on the receiving end of a police error, I'm glad that they are not typically armed!

Just reading your post above, I think you raise a good point here, I personally had no sway either way whether the police should be armed or not, but your post does make me think, that there probably would be more deaths if the police were all armed, so I'm leaning more towards not arming them.
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