fish.01

Out of interest why did you leave the Old Testament out as most are talking about the pointy end ?

chris955

I certainly wouldnt say all religions are the same, they are all as bad as eachother but not the same.

lesleys

Do you not agree that every religion is a belief system that there is an external non-human power or influence over humans? The Koran and the NT may be different to you but they share many attitudes with each other and other religious systems. Should a Confucian understand Judaism? Should a Hindu understand Scientology? Do you understand ancient Norse religion and heritage? Religions have evolved and diverged through time.

An atheist is someone who doesn't share any religious beliefs with anybody else - so sees all religions as having something in common, something they choose not to believe. All religious people choose not to believe other religions - atheists take it one step further.

Budawang

Christians, Muslims and Jews do believe in one God that created the universe. That's a bit like saying the British and Japanese both respected their royalty in the 19th Century. That commonality doesn't tell you much about the nature of their respective belief systems. Muhammad was a political leader and a warrior. Jesus was a pacifist who eschewed politics. It's hard to imagine two more different founding figures.

Christianity is the single most important historical influence on Western culture, norms and attitudes. It's all very well to be an atheist and to reject Christian beliefs but, in order for a "westerner" to understand his or her own culture, it is necessary to have some understanding of Christianity. Many of our modern, humanist/secular values were derived from Christianity.

Unfortunately, many westerners these days have little understanding of their own cultural roots which, in turn, makes it harder to understand the current friction between the west and the Islamic world.

Budawang

The New Testament superseded the Old Testament and my personal belief is that it is much more relevant to Christianity. The Old Testament provides the cultural context which helps us better understand the New Testament which is the core document of Christianity. Jesus was a revolutionary figure who inspired a religion very different to the Judaism that it replaced which helps explain why he was crucified.

chris955

Lets face it, all religions are based on little more than fairy stories and it beggars belief that in this day and age people still believe the nonsense. I understand now that some Christians actually believe that man and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time, talk about trying to cover all your bases

Budawang

Religions are relevant today because they embody a complex set of values which underpin modern societies. Whether or not religious beliefs are "fairy tales" is beside the point. Those values are very real.

Some of the values embodied by Islam are similar to Christian values, but others are quite different. That difference is important to understanding current geo-politics.

fish.01

Yes, I wasn't questioning your personal beliefs more why, when comparing christianity and islam in general, the old testament wouldn't be relevant given it is taught as literal fact to many Christians.

fish.01

Of course, that is all part of the debate with much disagreement about what came first, the value or Christianity. While of course Christianity was tightly bound in our culture I personally as an Atheist think Christians overuse this argument while I'm sure many Christians think it legitimises their beliefs and Atheists don't give it enough credence.

Of course culture, politics, religion, education levels, poverty and all types of things are thrown in the mix. I doubt many of us are experts on all of them and I personally think many common basic human issues are at play, with all religions unfortunately carrying their long baggage into the arena to muddy the waters and make things incredibly difficult to resolve.

glynster

Which values are you referring to that underpin modern societies? Is it the making and distributing of alcohol? Prostitution? Slavery? poor treatment of women? Separating of the sexes? collecting taxes? forcing beliefs? war and murdering?
I think society has moved a very long way since we broke the chains of social freedom from the church. Human beings have always had in built complex values, how have they been claimed by the religious? Men and women have always tried to do their best for their children, this is how society has improved and created a better society that we now live in.

rajj

militant islam, militant christians, all the same in my "ignorant" eyes. Still better to be "PI" then delusional.

campervanfan

yeah I read all this & decided I'm in the PI club too & very glad to be there ....very happy to be a strong independently- minded woman/mother who brings up her children to embrace no religious fervour whatsoever. Whatever they decide as a result is then based on their own reading & fine by me ....such fervent intellectual debate only compounds my belief that religious nuts are just that. Generally I keep my beliefs to myself....I wish others would do the same....I did wonder the other day how I'd be received if I knocked on the door of the JW's & told them they were all damned to hellfire...but that's just me..it's all such a crock & people are sooooo brainwashed it's sad

Budawang

None of these examples you have given are Christian values, with the possible exception of separating the sexes - even that is a dubious claim as women feature quite prominently in the New Testament. I've got no idea what point you are trying to make.

This is naive. It is a myth that human values are the same all over the world. For example, one of the most important values in Korean culture is racial purity. Many South Koreans actually consider their North Korean brethren to live in a more virtuous and racially pure society. Surprisingly to us, some North Koreans who defect to the South decide to return.

Of course, some human instincts like the maternal instinct are common to all humans, but the values espoused by a society are far more complex and sophisticated than basic human instinct.

Budawang

Well, I think this reflects the difference between Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity and Church of England on the one hand and the more fundamentalist "back to basics" approach espoused by evangelical protestantism. The more recent evangelical churches focus much more on the Old Testament whereas Anglicans and Catholics focus more on the New Testament and they have a greater sense of revelation being passed down to the Church through the lives of the saints over the centuries following Christ. This is a significant difference I think.

fish.01

Yes, I just thought the whole spectrum of Christianity, from the moderate to the extreme, would be the normal comparison to the whole of Islam. I agree, different religions and sects within each broader religion differ in some ways and I believe this would be implicit in most conversations.