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Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Old Aug 27th 2018, 10:23 pm
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Default Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Wow, this will be the biggest thing to hit Melbourne in all of my time here. Must say it's been talked about in one form or another for years. This could be the real making of Melbourne.


A loop from Cheltenham on the Coast in the East, right through to Werribee in the West. Definitely the best infrastructure project I've seen proposed for Melbourne.

Although part of me, says is it too late and would that be better as a dedicated autonomous vehicle route.

Melbourne suburban underground loop

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Old Aug 28th 2018, 12:46 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Originally Posted by ozzieeagle
Wow, this will be the biggest thing to hit Melbourne in all of my time here. Must say it's been talked about in one form or another for years. This could be the real making of Melbourne.


A loop from Cheltenham on the Coast in the East, right through to Werribee in the West. Definitely the best infrastructure project I've seen proposed for Melbourne.

Although part of me, says is it too late and would that be better as a dedicated autonomous vehicle route.

Melbourne suburban underground loop
Must be an election coming!

Unfinanced though - will have to pick fruit from the ALP Magic Money Tree
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Old Aug 28th 2018, 12:50 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Originally Posted by ozzieeagle
Wow, this will be the biggest thing to hit Melbourne in all of my time here. Must say it's been talked about in one form or another for years. This could be the real making of Melbourne.


A loop from Cheltenham on the Coast in the East, right through to Werribee in the West. Definitely the best infrastructure project I've seen proposed for Melbourne.

Although part of me, says is it too late and would that be better as a dedicated autonomous vehicle route.

Melbourne suburban underground loop
Badly needed, but shockingly decades late. I don't quite get the unfunded bit, then a price tag of 50 billion? As Sydney is finding out these things usually come way, way over budget. A bit of a matter of can be afford it or can we Not afford it. Serious tackling of the dire public transport system needs to be undertaken in all Australian cities. With population forecasts, the cities will be in constant dead lock in a few more decades. Way past time to encourage people away from cars as well. So pleasant to be in European cities recently and not need a car.
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Old Aug 28th 2018, 2:06 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Looks amazing, and as said it is way overdue. Especially with Melbourne's population growing the way it is at the moment, we need better options than routing everyone via the city. Hopefully will lead to better options to create hubs outside of the CBD. These already exist but additional transport options will make it much easier for people to live and work in other places.

I'm guessing it will be a case of "if you elect us we will build it" but would be good to see some bi-partisan support for the proposal. We need to stop relying on car transport to get everywhere in Melbourne.
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Old Aug 28th 2018, 3:14 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Then even if re elected, I wonder if costing's will diminish the original concept? Thing with Australian cities they are so spread out and difficult as such to get an affordable rail system in place. In the case of Melbourne, growing density, badly what cities need, if planned well, may go towards seeing it if off the ground.

On the other side of the country, I'm afraid something of a farce, with governments promising improved rail services, to the airport for example, but others as well, which when in power we are told are not affordable or deferred to a later date. Saying that public transport use has dropped in Perth, over recent years, post boom. In fact it remains, in general, in the doldrums, how long have I been hearing 'green shoots appearing' usually associated with real estate parlance and spin doctoring. But I digress.

Hope Melbourne gets these infrastructure projects under way. The future requires it and we are far behind many cities of a related size.
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Old Aug 28th 2018, 4:02 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Originally Posted by the troubadour
Then even if re elected, I wonder if costing's will diminish the original concept?
There's no way this is getting past the business case stage.

Firstly, the $50bn will blow out. Round here, for conventional tunnelling, there is no way to deliver this for that price. More like double, at best.

Second, the user numbers make no sense. They are trying to say that this line will get more usage than every other line that already exists - including all those arterial lines into the CBD. That's just not going to happen. Rather than 400,000 per day, they would be lucky to get 100,000. The RRL is on 50ish thousand, and that's much more the scale.

And that means it's not viable, and it disappears/gets torn up into little bits, in a year or two.

This is electioneering, nothing more.
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Old Aug 28th 2018, 7:16 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Originally Posted by the troubadour
Badly needed, but shockingly decades late. I don't quite get the unfunded bit, then a price tag of 50 billion? As Sydney is finding out these things usually come way, way over budget. A bit of a matter of can be afford it or can we Not afford it. Serious tackling of the dire public transport system needs to be undertaken in all Australian cities. With population forecasts, the cities will be in constant dead lock in a few more decades. Way past time to encourage people away from cars as well. So pleasant to be in European cities recently and not need a car.
You don't need a car for many parts of Melb. Same in Syd. My family of 4 has one car. Gets used a little on weekends and when on the odd chance I need to go to the office (I can public transport it and happily do if a boozy lunch is on but I have a parking spot so I abuse it)

You need to discover a bit more about Australia.
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Old Aug 28th 2018, 8:04 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Originally Posted by GarryP
There's no way this is getting past the business case stage.

Firstly, the $50bn will blow out. Round here, for conventional tunnelling, there is no way to deliver this for that price. More like double, at best.

Second, the user numbers make no sense. They are trying to say that this line will get more usage than every other line that already exists - including all those arterial lines into the CBD. That's just not going to happen. Rather than 400,000 per day, they would be lucky to get 100,000. The RRL is on 50ish thousand, and that's much more the scale.

And that means it's not viable, and it disappears/gets torn up into little bits, in a year or two.

This is electioneering, nothing more.
It wont be finished until 2050 apparently, so 400K per day in a city thats projected to have 8 million population wont be so far off.

Although once again, will they need it with Autonomous vehicles well and truly everywhere by the projected finish date?
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Old Aug 28th 2018, 8:09 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Originally Posted by ozzieeagle
It wont be finished until 2050 apparently, so 400K per day in a city thats projected to have 8 million population wont be so far off.

Although once again, will they need it with Autonomous vehicles well and truly everywhere by the projected finish date?
Oh I doubt that this will get past the business case stage, as I say, the whole thing really doesn't add up. And even if you were targeting 2050 and 8m population, that would also put the arterial lines way up - and you'd need to be building them now.

And by that point you are correct, autonomous vehicles would well and truly have taken over - so who is going to wait on a cold station for a slow train to trundle up, late, at some silly price. You might as well be waiting for the pony and trap.
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Old Aug 28th 2018, 8:21 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Originally Posted by GarryP
Oh I doubt that this will get past the business case stage, as I say, the whole thing really doesn't add up. And even if you were targeting 2050 and 8m population, that would also put the arterial lines way up - and you'd need to be building them now.

And by that point you are correct, autonomous vehicles would well and truly have taken over - so who is going to wait on a cold station for a slow train to trundle up, late, at some silly price. You might as well be waiting for the pony and trap.
So autonomous vehicles are going to do away with traffic lights and cross town movements? (note where the line goes - not to the centre like all others).

The problem is, autonomy is not going to reduce the number of cars on the roads. Even if you deploy some serious pooling.

Roads can't get wider unless you acquire a serious amount of property.

So its down to creating new roads, or corridors and the only place you can do that is underground, so the cost of digging and lining is there anyway.

Now its down to pulling teeth over whether the thing that keeps the vehicle straight in the tunnel is done on rail or on tyres.

Last edited by Beoz; Aug 28th 2018 at 10:00 am.
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Old Aug 28th 2018, 8:41 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Originally Posted by Beoz
So autonomous vehicles are going to do away with traffic lights and cross-town movements? (note where the line goes - not to the centre like all others).

The problem is, autonomy is not going to reduce the number of cars on the roads. Even if you deploy some serious pooling.

Roads can't get wider unless you acquire a serious amount of property.

So it's down to creating new roads, or corridors and the only place you can do that is underground, so the cost of digging and lining is there anyway.

Now its down to pulling teeth over weather the thing that keeps the vehicle straight in the tunnel is done on rail or on tyres.
d


When full autonomy is achieved, there definitely won't be any traffic lights, save for pedestrian, Plus the road lane directions will change with traffic volumes depending on the time of day. Everything I've read points to at least 40 pct less traffic per current volumes on a pro rata basis. There will be far far more car pooling, in fact, it will probably be the vast majority for commuter traffic at least, rather than what we have now with the majority being a single occupant.
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Old Aug 28th 2018, 9:59 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Originally Posted by ozzieeagle
d

When full autonomy is achieved, there definitely won't be any traffic lights, save for pedestrians
.
Of course. It will just be like Vietnam, slotting in and out where there's a gap.

Originally Posted by ozzieeagle
d

the road lane directions will change with traffic volumes depending on the time of day.
Of course. Everyone goes in the same direction. All those school teachers causing traffic mayhem will all travel into the city, so will students, just so the roads get a single direction flow.

Originally Posted by ozzieeagle
d
Everything I've read points to at least 40 pct less traffic per current volumes on a pro rata basis. There will be far far more car pooling, in fact, it will probably be the vast majority for commuter traffic at least, rather than what we have now with the majority being a single occupant.
That will be interesting to see with Melbournes population forecast to double.

So here's the trick. Why pool cars with 5 seats when you can just use buses and increase the volume? Oh we have buses now.

Excitement and novelty over calculations is not making sense.
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Old Aug 28th 2018, 10:20 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Originally Posted by Beoz
Of course. It will just be like Vietnam, slotting in and out where there's a gap.



Of course. Everyone goes in the same direction. All those school teachers causing traffic mayhem will all travel into the city, so will students, just so the roads get a single direction flow.



That will be interesting to see with Melbournes population forecast to double.

So here's the trick. Why pool cars with 5 seats when you can just use buses and increase the volume? Oh we have buses now.

Excitement and novelty over calculations is not making sense.
I'd anticipate a lot more one way traffic, especially if the vehicles are wifi connected to each other as proposed. As for types of Vehicles, who knows where the evolution will take us. There are all kinds of unknown scenarios developments and refinements to come. I'd say you could call it a bus eventually, but not as we know it, especially if it splits apart and reassembles at certain points of the journey as parts go hither and rejoin at certain out of the way points.

One thing I do know..... Look to China for the answers.
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Old Aug 28th 2018, 9:28 pm
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Originally Posted by ozzieeagle;12555449[b
]I'd anticipate a lot more one way traffic[/b], especially if the vehicles are wifi connected to each other as proposed. As for types of Vehicles, who knows where the evolution will take us. There are all kinds of unknown scenarios developments and refinements to come. I'd say you could call it a bus eventually, but not as we know it, especially if it splits apart and reassembles at certain points of the journey as parts go hither and rejoin at certain out of the way points.

One thing I do know..... Look to China for the answers.
I would anticipate the reverse as localised business areas continue to appear.

In Sydney you have the city, you have North Sydney, you have Chatswood. You now have Macquarie Park as a technology hub (and other businesses), Parramatta has 5 new office towers on the go, there is the new Aerotropolis for the region around the new airport.

Maybe it's just Sydney (I doubt it) but how do you propose everyone travelling in the same direction when population growth and development of new commercial areas dictates people travel in different directions?
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Old Aug 29th 2018, 1:01 am
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Default Re: Massive suburban underground rail project proposal for Melbourne.

Originally Posted by Beoz
I would anticipate the reverse as localised business areas continue to appear.

In Sydney you have the city, you have North Sydney, you have Chatswood. You now have Macquarie Park as a technology hub (and other businesses), Parramatta has 5 new office towers on the go, there is the new Aerotropolis for the region around the new airport.

Maybe it's just Sydney (I doubt it) but how do you propose everyone travelling in the same direction when population growth and development of new commercial areas dictates people travel in different directions?
Adjacent Roads, Here Nicholson St becomes South running, Lygon North running. and Bell St Becomes East Running, Southern Rd, Murray Rd, Gaffney becomes West running etc etc etc.
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