Israel Palestinian

Old Nov 21st 2023, 6:48 am
  #31  
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Beoz


I get the feeling Israel don't give too much of a care for international support unless it's from someone supplying arms.


I'm not sure what Hamas' goal is. Onviously obliteration of Israel which they have stated but thats unlikely.

And Israel as said it won't stop until Hamas is obliterated in Gaza.
I'm sure that Israel cares about the monetary support it receives - particularly from the US.

Definitely doesn't care about international laws - not a signatory / member / whatever of ICC.

Israel's end goal is the end of Palestine / Palestinians except for them it's not called terrorism / invasion and it's not limited to a terrorist organisation - Israel calls it settling / settler violence and is supported by IDF and plenty of extremist groups see all the land as Israeli and are actively working towards is too.

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Old Nov 21st 2023, 7:25 am
  #32  
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by old.sparkles
I'm sure that Israel cares about the monetary support it receives - particularly from the US.

Definitely doesn't care about international laws - not a signatory / member / whatever of ICC.

Israel's end goal is the end of Palestine / Palestinians except for them it's not called terrorism / invasion and it's not limited to a terrorist organisation - Israel calls it settling / settler violence and is supported by IDF and plenty of extremist groups see all the land as Israeli and are actively working towards is too.
ICC isn't that international if you look at who isn't signed up including 3/5 UN security council members.

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Old Nov 21st 2023, 12:09 pm
  #33  
 
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Pulaski
That is precisely what what Hamas's goal is, and that is precisely why the Palestinians have walked away from every peace process since the late 1940's (of which there have been a number - maybe five, or seven, I don't recall off-hand) ..... the only acceptable solution to the Palestinians is "from the river to the sea", meaning no Israel, and no Jews living in the area between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean (at least not if they value their lives).

I agree with you. I would only add that Israel - Netanyahu really - has played its part in making sure that peace agreements such as Oslo do not come to pass with provocative "settling" and more. And Netanyahu's deal with the devil, ie facilitating and allowing funding to get directly to Hamas from Qatar, in order to weaken the Palestinian Authority and prevent a united Palestinian front, is unforgiveable.

I don't know how peace will be achieved, tbh, in practical terms. It's easy for us to say "just stop fighting" or "just stop the settlements" or "give civil rights". All these things are worthy and important goals, but how they can now be achieved - well, it looks pretty difficult.
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Old Nov 21st 2023, 4:45 pm
  #34  
 
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Pulaski
That is precisely what what Hamas's goal is, and that is precisely why the Palestinians have walked away from every peace process since the late 1940's (of which there have been a number - maybe five, or seven, I don't recall off-hand) ..... the only acceptable solution to the Palestinians is "from the river to the sea", meaning no Israel, and no Jews living in the area between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean (at least not if they value their lives).
Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
I agree with you. I would only add that Israel - Netanyahu really - has played its part in making sure that peace agreements such as Oslo do not come to pass with provocative "settling" and more. And Netanyahu's deal with the devil, ie facilitating and allowing funding to get directly to Hamas from Qatar, in order to weaken the Palestinian Authority and prevent a united Palestinian front, is unforgiveable.

I don't know how peace will be achieved, tbh, in practical terms. It's easy for us to say "just stop fighting" or "just stop the settlements" or "give civil rights". All these things are worthy and important goals, but how they can now be achieved - well, it looks pretty difficult.

Too late to edit, but I noticed something so to add that not all Palestinians want the removal of Israel or to kill all the Jewish people. That is factually incorrect and multiple sources will confirm.


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Old Nov 21st 2023, 5:02 pm
  #35  
 
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
Too late to edit, but I noticed something so to add that not all Palestinians want the removal of Israel or to kill all the Jewish people. That is factually incorrect and multiple sources will confirm.
That may be correct, (I have no evidence either way, though statistically I agree that it is unlikley that there is unanimity of opinion among 4.9million people, though I suspect that a large majority of Palestinians would reject anything but "the river to the sea" position), but the leadership that have represented the Palestinian population have walked away from all the peace confierences that have taken place over the past 75 years, rejecting "the two state solution" consistently.
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Old Nov 21st 2023, 5:30 pm
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Pulaski
That may be correct, (I have no evidence either way, though statistically I agree that it is unlikley that there is unanimity of opinion among 4.9million people, though I suspect that a large majority of Palestinians would reject anything but "the river to the sea" position), but the leadership that have represented the Palestinian population have walked away from all the peace confierences that have taken place over the past 75 years, rejecting "the two state solution" consistently.
This is a reasonable summary of what went wrong with Oslo, including the fact that it didn't actually include two states as a condition. The murder of Rabin by a right wing Israeli didn't help, either.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/09/13...ocess-lessons/

And yes, I think at this point the Palestinian gen pop supports two states less and less. About 25% only, now, I think. I'm sure it has dropped like a rock over the last few weeks.

It would also be incorrect to ignore how Israel/Netanyahu has also acted to sabotage a two state solution, not least by enabling fundingvto Hamas and dontinued annexation of land in the West Bank. Palestinians didn't walk away from the two state solution per se, only from the unsatisfactory versions of it offered to them from an unequal power relationship. Now the situation is even worse, of course.

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Nov 21st 2023 at 5:33 pm.
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Old Nov 21st 2023, 6:04 pm
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
.... only from the unsatisfactory versions of it offered to them from an unequal power relationship. Now the situation is even worse, of course.
I suspect that offering progressively less attractive solutions to the Palestinians has been the de facto, even if not publically acknowledged, strategy of the Israelis.
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Old Nov 21st 2023, 7:18 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Palestinian representatives have consistently if not unnaminously, accepted the two state solution. I looked up polling snd it varies over time and how the question was asked from 20% to 80%.. it has been falling in numbers, as it becomes more remote. The 67 borders are over and over presented by Palestinian representatives. Oslo accepted the state of Israel, but it's a bit of a push to say the PA withdrew from that. The declaration of independence was a de facto acceptable of Israel. Even Hamas (to my surprise) as recently as 2017, presented 67 borders as a solution.
It seems a little odd to say Palestinians walk away from a two state solution, without discussing Israel's strategy of avoiding it
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Last edited by kimilseung; Nov 21st 2023 at 7:21 pm.
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