ozzieeagle

Thats moving into underworld activity and protection rackets..... Which again is a problem aroound the world. The authorities are now working on the bikie rackets here.

In fact...http://www.smh.com.au/national/europ...229-2c0lj.html

You may see some Aussie Bikies near you soon Chris

chris955

Unfortunately the authorities have been working on it for years and nothing has changed. I cant see those 2 gangs getting far over here or Europe.

Almo

Fair enough. Personally I would disagree with a), I think it's equally expansive but different. B), perhaps you're right, I really am in two minds over this one, but you might be right. C is true of course, because Australia has no aristocracy in the true sense of the word, and it is money which buys them access to the schools necessary to get on to the old boys' network, and money which buys them a house in the 'right' suburb. Of course aristocracy in the UK only serves to distinguish those who are upper class vs those who are not. It is not aristocracy which determines who is middle class and who is working class and I'd argue that the distinctions between middle and working class in the UK are little different from Australian distinctions.

Interesting discussion.

Almo

I know only too well that young people have to move to some of these places because they are priced out - I did it! My OH and I were bowled over by the response from everyone we knew, everyone felt that they had the right (almost the duty, it sometimes felt) to comment (negatively) and that continued right through to when we sold it, three years after buying it. In that time we both changed jobs, met new people and the pattern continued, everyone would make derogatory remarks.

As you note, there are similarities in the way suburbs are perceived in both Melbourne and London and I agree with your point that people are often not comparing apples and oranges because they have often moved from a small town/city to one of the big ones in Australia. I've lived in London but not in a comparable suburb so I can't be sure what my experiences would be in that situation, but having known people who've lived in less desirable London suburbs I haven't witnessed anything like the reaction we experienced.

Of course, someone might come along now and say they were villified for living in a particular London suburb. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, people's experiences colour their view and the perception of what the class structure is in Australia will be no different.

BadgeIsBack

In London, everyone knows whether their place is posh or not. It doesn't necessarily need to be said, to be honest. People just know. I actually think that a lot of Australians are more motivated by shear practicality and lifestyle than class as Australian cities are so geared to being near the CBD or water.
Not every Melbournian can get to live in Toorak even if they wanted to. And not every Melbournian went to a top tier school - they would be overflowing!

What is wrong with a grammar school? You seem defensive now! That's the second time you have made a assumption. First of all it was about renting..!

General point - (not detracting from your point), putting bikies in the context of trouble: bikie gangs are far more hardcore and I wouldn't use them as a barometer of unrest. I sort of see where people come from though when they talk about yoof on street corners in the UK. Quite simply, I think though that the car culture of Australia makes it much less of a place yoof can hang out. In some ways it's harder for a group of yoof to cause havoc in a town centre because there are so few town centres....kids tend to hang around at each other's houses here.

I agree with all this. The whole point is that Australia does have a class system, and what you might call a upper class, minus an official aristocracy.
It probably makes no sense for people to argue this, unless they are discussing details.

I take a more modern view than Zen and would state that any middle class attribute makes you middle - but there are huge differences culturally amongst the middle classes partly due to culture and background. These are mirrored in Australia.

So I agree that how you define the working classes and middle classes on paper are similar.

The only reason why I make cultural references to the working and middle classes of both countries is that so many migrants find differences - in essence a sort of incompatibility - in some cases insurmountable. This site tells us some British migrants just don't like the Australians they meet and think them majorly uncouth. People claim to be fine with people of their class, or job in the UK but then find real problems with the equivalent people in Australia - to the point of clear distress and dissatisfaction. There are legions of complaints about the average Australian attributed to 'class'...(or lack of). There are legions of complaints about suburban mono-cultures etc. But then lots of people find their examples of professional life the same.

I wonder whether the more flexible, qualified, socially mobile (etc), the migrant, the less effected the migrant is in Australia. Once you get beyond the huge suburban cultural bubble of the working and middle classes, all of a sudden life becomes more similar.

Almo

We have been back in the UK for nearly 2 months and are living in Chester, funnily enough. We live right in the city which probably makes our experiences different to people who live/d in more suburban areas. We don't see groups of yoofs hanging out on street corners as such, sometimes see groups of yoofs wandering around town. I've seen nothing to suggest that they are anything other than nice kids but I must admit that I would far rather be on a bus/train with a group of Aussie teenagers than a group of British teenagers. Funny really, I've never had a bad experience with a British yoof and only once did I witness an Aussie teen kicking off on a bus, and I don't consider him representative.

At the risk of sounding somewhat dodgy, I think Aussie kids in general are more attractive.

You are right that there are cultural differences in definitions of class, as well as more general cultural differences. I'm struggling to put them into words, but I agree that there are differences. I remember having long discussions with Aussie friends over the differences between [the stereotypes of] a bogan and a chav.

BadgeIsBack

I reckon you are entitled to your opinion about Aussie teens - I sort of agree (but there are exceptions). It's not very fashionable on this site to go out on a limb and make a sort of stab at a cultural difference. If anything Aussie teens can seem lethargic.

I've said that chavs tend to be very aggressive. Bogans can be quite harmless - until they get into cars then they become dangerous - in this guise they are hoons....

Zen10

Bikies are more akin to organised gangs in the UK, traffickers, Mafia, etc, than what we're talking about.

ozzieeagle

I wonder where Linzi got too....

eddie007

Sorry... Are you saying this thread is getting off track?

Or it's like watching a train wreck?

ozzieeagle

Doesn't matter either way....Tis the way it's supposed to work in my book

bobbyftm

Well this one certainly went off track this morning at our local station

LINZI

papilon

Firstly the quip about living in a unit or renting was tongue in cheek although there is some truth in It especially if your over 30. I suspect this will change as buying will not be an option for many.

Secondly not mentioning going to grammar school was because one of the Tooting Popular Front started having a go at me after I mentioned I attended a grammar school. Absolutely nothing wrong with them in my opinion.

BadgeIsBack

Gotcha - thought this was an issue you might have had with people you had met in Australia.