Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
#107
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
I think we can safely conclude that as his father left NZ before NZ citizenship even existed the very premise that NZ can claim Joyce as a Kiwi is unfounded. Born here to a 5th generation Aussie and a British subject, the whole thing is getting a bit farcical and Shorten mouthing off is doing him way more harm than good, long may he continue.
I hear what you are saying but if the case was reversed and he had to prove he was a citizen he'd have to pay a fee as do numerous other Kiwis born here. No fee has ever been paid.
I personally think a dubious claim that a person born in Australia can be adopted by another country without his/her consent is ridiculous. Kiwis consider all Aussies to be their citizens so imo as their [NZ] legislation stands at the moment every prospective member of parliament would need to renounce citizenship of NZ in order to be eligible to stand, you only need look at their wording.
I also further contest that his father was ever a NZ citizen it didn't exist in 1947 when he left. He moved here as a British subject, then, when the citizenship act came into force in 1949 he automatically became an Aussie citizen. You can't be something that didn't exist. Follow the link in the NZ citizenship application and when you get to the bit that says was either of your parents a NZ citizen at the time of your birth his 100% honest answer would be no. Unless he'd applied for it after 1949 [and before 1967] when his Aussie citizenship had been conferred upon him his father went straight from British subject to Aussie citizen.
I personally think a dubious claim that a person born in Australia can be adopted by another country without his/her consent is ridiculous. Kiwis consider all Aussies to be their citizens so imo as their [NZ] legislation stands at the moment every prospective member of parliament would need to renounce citizenship of NZ in order to be eligible to stand, you only need look at their wording.
I also further contest that his father was ever a NZ citizen it didn't exist in 1947 when he left. He moved here as a British subject, then, when the citizenship act came into force in 1949 he automatically became an Aussie citizen. You can't be something that didn't exist. Follow the link in the NZ citizenship application and when you get to the bit that says was either of your parents a NZ citizen at the time of your birth his 100% honest answer would be no. Unless he'd applied for it after 1949 [and before 1967] when his Aussie citizenship had been conferred upon him his father went straight from British subject to Aussie citizen.
#108
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
When Joyce was born in 1967 his father was a NZ citizen by birth, the same as anyone else who had been born in NZ, barring the usual exemption for children born to foreign diplomats. The status of British subject as a separate nationality category, apart from a handful with a connection to pre-independence Ireland or India, ended on 1 January 1949 when the British Nationality Act 1948 came into force and created the new category of Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies. Each dominion then created its own citizenship laws. As the child of a NZ-born father Joyce would have received NZ citizenship by descent automatically.
This is incorrect. As a British subject who hadn't been born in Australia he would have needed to have been ordinarily resident in Australia for five years prior to 26 January 1949. At best he had been resident for two. Unless his father was born in the UK then he wouldn't have become a CUKC either. The only possible citizenship he could have held would have been NZ citizenship. He didn't need to have been living in NZ at the time the law came into force; his birth there was sufficient. Joyce's father would have known this because unless he made a separate application for Australian citizenship he would only been entitled to a NZ passport. Joyce himself hasn't denied that his father is a New Zealander only that he has never 'claimed' New Zealand citizenship for himself. The problem is he doesn't need to - he always has been a NZ citizen.
This is incorrect. As a British subject who hadn't been born in Australia he would have needed to have been ordinarily resident in Australia for five years prior to 26 January 1949. At best he had been resident for two. Unless his father was born in the UK then he wouldn't have become a CUKC either. The only possible citizenship he could have held would have been NZ citizenship. He didn't need to have been living in NZ at the time the law came into force; his birth there was sufficient. Joyce's father would have known this because unless he made a separate application for Australian citizenship he would only been entitled to a NZ passport. Joyce himself hasn't denied that his father is a New Zealander only that he has never 'claimed' New Zealand citizenship for himself. The problem is he doesn't need to - he always has been a NZ citizen.
There would be an excellent chance Joyce's father had no clue he was a NZ citizen. If he had not travelled there would be no need to prove nor check up on his status. As you say, he may have spent the 2 years in Oz from 1947-1949 and been an Aussie citizen when the British subject thing ended. One would then not bother questioning the other.
I had no clue I was both an Aussie and British citizen by birth and decent until I needed to work in both countries. Why would I check or care? I probably wouldn't check if I was an MP, until this debacle broke out.
There's many countries with obscure citizenship laws. I bet there's some that won't let you renounce at all. Isn't there an Iranian polly who wrote a letter to renounce and never heard back.
#109
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
As has been demonstrated to you, the wording isn't vague. It says plain as day, if you are a citizen of another country, you aren't eligible to stand.
Any person who ... is a subject or a citizen ... shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.
It's also worth reading a previous case of dual citizenshipSue v Hill [1999] HCA 30; 199 CLR 462; 163 ALR 648; 73 ALJR 1016 (23 June 1999)
in particular sec 175-176
In short, providing they follow the constitution and the precedent set by the high court, Joyce is out. There is wiggle room for others that applied to renunciation as to what "reasonable steps" means. My guess is they will take many pages over that little question - but in the case of Joyce is was and remains an NZ citizen, so this case applies.
#110
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
Sigh
As has been demonstrated to you, the wording isn't vague. It says plain as day, if you are a citizen of another country, you aren't eligible to stand.
Sue v Hill [1999] HCA 30; 199 CLR 462; 163 ALR 648; 73 ALJR 1016 (23 June 1999)
in particular sec 175-176
In short, providing they follow the constitution and the precedent set by the high court, Joyce is out. There is wiggle room for others that applied to renunciation as to what "reasonable steps" means. My guess is they will take many pages over that little question - but in the case of Joyce is was and remains an NZ citizen, so this case applies.
As has been demonstrated to you, the wording isn't vague. It says plain as day, if you are a citizen of another country, you aren't eligible to stand.
Any person who ... is a subject or a citizen ... shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.
It's also worth reading a previous case of dual citizenshipSue v Hill [1999] HCA 30; 199 CLR 462; 163 ALR 648; 73 ALJR 1016 (23 June 1999)
in particular sec 175-176
In short, providing they follow the constitution and the precedent set by the high court, Joyce is out. There is wiggle room for others that applied to renunciation as to what "reasonable steps" means. My guess is they will take many pages over that little question - but in the case of Joyce is was and remains an NZ citizen, so this case applies.
#111
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
I hear what you are saying but if the case was reversed and he had to prove he was a citizen he'd have to pay a fee as do numerous other Kiwis born here. No fee has ever been paid.
I personally think a dubious claim that a person born in Australia can be adopted by another country without his/her consent is ridiculous. Kiwis consider all Aussies to be their citizens so imo as their [NZ] legislation stands at the moment every prospective member of parliament would need to renounce citizenship of NZ in order to be eligible to stand, you only need look at their wording.
I also further contest that his father was ever a NZ citizen it didn't exist in 1947 when he left. He moved here as a British subject, then, when the citizenship act came into force in 1949 he automatically became an Aussie citizen. You can't be something that didn't exist. Follow the link in the NZ citizenship application and when you get to the bit that says was either of your parents a NZ citizen at the time of your birth his 100% honest answer would be no. Unless he'd applied for it after 1949 [and before 1967] when his Aussie citizenship had been conferred upon him his father went straight from British subject to Aussie citizen.
I personally think a dubious claim that a person born in Australia can be adopted by another country without his/her consent is ridiculous. Kiwis consider all Aussies to be their citizens so imo as their [NZ] legislation stands at the moment every prospective member of parliament would need to renounce citizenship of NZ in order to be eligible to stand, you only need look at their wording.
I also further contest that his father was ever a NZ citizen it didn't exist in 1947 when he left. He moved here as a British subject, then, when the citizenship act came into force in 1949 he automatically became an Aussie citizen. You can't be something that didn't exist. Follow the link in the NZ citizenship application and when you get to the bit that says was either of your parents a NZ citizen at the time of your birth his 100% honest answer would be no. Unless he'd applied for it after 1949 [and before 1967] when his Aussie citizenship had been conferred upon him his father went straight from British subject to Aussie citizen.
Similarly, expats who have children born here know that their children are British by descent.
It's not another country claiming and Australian as their own - it is what it says on the packet - dual citizenship with one of them being a by descent citizenship.
EG - if you moved here before your children were born, they are British and their children, your grandchildren are British by descent. If you wanted to prove that, you do not need a certificate, you can apply directly for their passports with proof that their parents are British.
I don't understand what people are trying to make so difficult about a simple matter. The more confusing cases arise from when citizenship can continue past a first generation which I think is the case with Italy, Ireland, etc.
#112
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Posts: 93,807
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
As an MP it would be your responsibility to check. If you don't, you are negligent.
#114
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
Get real.
#115
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
Sigh
As has been demonstrated to you, the wording isn't vague. It says plain as day, if you are a citizen of another country, you aren't eligible to stand.
Sue v Hill [1999] HCA 30; 199 CLR 462; 163 ALR 648; 73 ALJR 1016 (23 June 1999)
in particular sec 175-176
In short, providing they follow the constitution and the precedent set by the high court, Joyce is out. There is wiggle room for others that applied to renunciation as to what "reasonable steps" means. My guess is they will take many pages over that little question - but in the case of Joyce is was and remains an NZ citizen, so this case applies.
As has been demonstrated to you, the wording isn't vague. It says plain as day, if you are a citizen of another country, you aren't eligible to stand.
Any person who ... is a subject or a citizen ... shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.
It's also worth reading a previous case of dual citizenshipSue v Hill [1999] HCA 30; 199 CLR 462; 163 ALR 648; 73 ALJR 1016 (23 June 1999)
in particular sec 175-176
In short, providing they follow the constitution and the precedent set by the high court, Joyce is out. There is wiggle room for others that applied to renunciation as to what "reasonable steps" means. My guess is they will take many pages over that little question - but in the case of Joyce is was and remains an NZ citizen, so this case applies.
Refer back to post 90. Then refer to this, written 9 hours ago. http://m.huffingtonpost.com.au/robert-angyal/section-44-of-the-constitution-means-nobody-is-eligible-to-be-el_a_23078667/
This barrister just appeared on the ABC news too. I'm sure you were tuned into your favourite left wing tabloid.
This is far from clear cut, and that's before section 7 of New Zealand law gets thrown into the mix.
#116
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
Refer back to post 90. Then refer to this, written 9 hours ago. Section 44 Of The Constitution Means NOBODY Is Eligible To Be Elected To Parliament
Seriously, do you think the High Court reading of that catch all clause would be as this lowly barrister thinks?Someone is looking for some publicity...
#117
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
Can you bring it back from name calling? All it does is lower respect.
#118
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
Well, first of all there was no name calling.
And secondly, I have no respect for crass stupidity. In fact my tolerance threshold is lowering the more of it I see in the world.
Call a *****wit a *****wit. Maybe they will realise that's what they are. Facts and subtly obviously don't work.
And secondly, I have no respect for crass stupidity. In fact my tolerance threshold is lowering the more of it I see in the world.
Call a *****wit a *****wit. Maybe they will realise that's what they are. Facts and subtly obviously don't work.
#119
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
Well, first of all there was no name calling.
And secondly, I have no respect for crass stupidity. In fact my tolerance threshold is lowering the more of it I see in the world.
Call a *****wit a *****wit. Maybe they will realise that's what they are. Facts and subtly obviously don't work.
And secondly, I have no respect for crass stupidity. In fact my tolerance threshold is lowering the more of it I see in the world.
Call a *****wit a *****wit. Maybe they will realise that's what they are. Facts and subtly obviously don't work.
#120
Re: Dual Citizenship A Barrier ?
It only matters when the lawyers pull apart the vague wording of section 44.
There would be an excellent chance Joyce's father had no clue he was a NZ citizen. If he had not travelled there would be no need to prove nor check up on his status. As you say, he may have spent the 2 years in Oz from 1947-1949 and been an Aussie citizen when the British subject thing ended. One would then not bother questioning the other.
There would be an excellent chance Joyce's father had no clue he was a NZ citizen. If he had not travelled there would be no need to prove nor check up on his status. As you say, he may have spent the 2 years in Oz from 1947-1949 and been an Aussie citizen when the British subject thing ended. One would then not bother questioning the other.
I had no clue I was both an Aussie and British citizen by birth and decent until I needed to work in both countries. Why would I check or care? I probably wouldn't check if I was an MP, until this debacle broke out.
There's many countries with obscure citizenship laws. I bet there's some that won't let you renounce at all. Isn't there an Iranian polly who wrote a letter to renounce and never heard back.