spalen

Thats not correct- this is a 'fundamentalist' minority - a minority within a minority...

.... Like the christian lunatics who blow up abortion hospitals , or catholics who refuse use of condoms for women whose husbands have aids in 3rd world countries ( oh wait.. thats the pope). Or David Ike.

The nitpicking is exactly the problem : The leader of the country classifies a group of people by religion and then implies that they dont speak Australian and are different... That is my fundamental issue - You cannot do that in a tolerant society.

ALL Christians speak English and integrate with Society do they ? So the Italian grandparents who dont speak English, the Spanish etc. Pick a country that is christian and you'll find migrants from that country in other countries who dont integrate. There is a reason that 'china town' exists or 'little italy' exists in our common language and terms of reference.

Swerv-o

This was my point. There are small communities in the uk that live by sharia (Islamic religious law) law over the law of the land - I know, as I've been involved with them. Predominantly, they are of Islamic extraction, irrespective of the nationality of the people - They are bound not by their country of origin but by their religion - Pakistanis will happily integrate with Bangladeshis, Bangladeshis with Afghanis etc because thay have the basis of Sharia law in common.

Islam is uncommon in that it is not separated by national boundaries, but is almost a unified religious entity in it's own right. As Wol says, the majority of other countries that you could visit have a very clear separation between state and religion, which gives more freedoms. Look at Italy - religion was separated from the state during the reformation. Islam has never had a reformation, thus many Islamic countries do not have this boundary, so they are unable to separate state and religion. Not all though - Egypt and Iraq under Saddam are examples.

As for uncle Jonnies comments, well, I think that, yes, they are obviously aimed at islamic immigrants - but may that's for a good reason. I can't think of any other religious body - excepting perhaps fundamentalist groups in the US mid west - that would insist on arriving in a new country and insisting that it be judged and allowed to live by the laws it had brought with them. Well, maybe the English of course

Infact, if I think of the other minority communities I have worked with in the past, Islamic ones are probably the only example. Hindi, Sikh, Buddhist, B'Hai - I could go on - all have far more respect for the country that they have migrated to.

S

christinabell

Ok so Johnny made a mistake. He should have said all Muslims from non english speaking countries should learn our language. That would have made it a lot easier for the minority of people who didnt understand there would be no need for english speaking muslims to learn our language and that Muslim was a country.

But , if you are going to criticise our Prime minister for making a mistake u better have a closer look at what u just wrote. Do u not think the aboriginals would be upset with u for assuming we all "speak Australian " ? Sorry, but Ive always spoken english

Vash the Stampede

Firstly, he didn't mention veils at all, and I don't think he had veils in mind. Secondly, he didn't generalise about the entire Muslim community.

So please, stop putting words in Howard's mouth.

It's not so much the beliefs, but the attitudes and practices: forced marriages, a lower status for women, etc. Granted, these things don't occur in every Muslim community, but they are sufficiently frequent to be alarming.

Oh yes, and don't forget "honour killings"...

Police "honour killings" arrests.

Memorial for 'honour killing' victim.

Jordan's dilemma over 'honour killings'.

'Honour killings' to be reviewed.

Europe tackles 'honour killings'.

Vash the Stampede

Correct.

Which is exactly what Howard wrote:
It may be popular to attack anyone who speaks out against problematic behaviour in ethnic communities, but it certainly doesn't help the situation. Confronting the reality is the first step towards dealing with it. Simply covering our eyes and ears and living in denial, doesn't help anyone.

Cronulla was a case in point. Remember the original incident that sparked it all? A bunch of Lebanese thugs who were already notorious for harrassing local beachgoers, chose to further express their racist views by beating up an innocent lifeguard.

This came as no surprise to those of us who remember the infamous series of pack rapes in 2000.

Fact: those rapes were racially motivated hate crimes committed by Lebanese men against white Australian women; a classic example of the behaviour that Howard condemns in his article.

Fact: the Lebanese community has a problem with elements of violence, racism and misogyny within a small proportion of its members, just as the white Australian community has a problem with elements of violence, racism and misogyny within a small proportion of its own members.

Cronulla saw the worst of these elements unleashed upon the public. Racists and bigots from both communities used Cronulla as a springboard for their own malicious ends. It began with a violent racist attack by Lebanese thugs; it ended with a violent racist attack by white Australian thugs.

Both sides were guilty, yet a disturbing double-standard prevailed: anyone who identified the ethnicity of the Lebanese perpetrators was dubbed "racist", while anyone who identified the ethnicity of the white perpetrators was applauded.

BTW, Senator Bob Brown has accused Howard of being "the most xenophobic leader Australia has ever had."

Now that's jingoism.

spalen

Yeah nice one vash - quote the editorial that was written 24hrs after the original comments.....

The Prime Minister of a country should not go on record and say what he said. It was reported as a direct attack on Muslims not integrating. It wasnt couched with 'minority within a minority'.

IF he had said exactly what was in the editorial, which is balanced and fair, then fair enough... however he didnt did he. What he did was use jingoistic rhetoric which has no place in the mouth of an intelligent person.

How many muslims do you really think are in Australia ? And how many do you think speak English... I would bet its the vast majority. I dont see a lot of people walking round trying to converse in shops in 'muslim' whatever the f"""k that is supposed to be..........

Tiggs+Graz

Don't you think that we are getting more and more into a situation where people hear a single word in a sentence, in this case 'Mulsim', and they automatically assume that the speaker is being racist.

The context, the intended meaning, and even the other words in the sentence are completely ignored or wilfully misinterprited in order that the listener is able to shout 'you are a racist' at the speaker.

Perhaps it would be more helpful if the listener were to start from the view point that the speaker is NOT racist (innocent until proven guilty?!) and actually listen with an unbiased ear to what is being said.

Why assume the worst in people?

Tiggs

Wol

You really *are* trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, while ignoring the reality.

The PM wasn't meaning to target any particular group, IMO: it's just that the *reality* is that it's the Islamic minority that *is* becoming a big problem. Which will become worse if we bury our head in the sand.

It's not relevant which language the individual speaks: the important thing is that if he chooses *not* to learn and speak the "official" language of the country it exascerbates the ghetto mentality.

As an aside, I believe that the USA doesn't have a defined official language and that, as a result, they are rapidly approaching the point where it would be legitimate to argue for Spanish to be that language...

Tolerance is all very well and good, but it *has* to work both ways. It's flying in the face of reason to believe that one "side" can accept all sorts of attacks on it's fundamental principles whilst at the same time the other is able to obey only it's own, alien, ones.

Vash the Stampede

Thanks. I always think it's best to critique people's views once they've had a chance to explain them in detail and present them in the proper context.

Can you give me a transcript of the original comments, please? When and where were they made - and in what context?

Muslims represent around 1% of the Australian population, if I remember correctly.

Yes, I agree.

No, I must admit I've never seen anything of the sort.

BTW, now that you've finished bashing the PM, perhaps you'd like to read this:
ABC.

This grubby little man also happens to be a senior member of the Prime Minister's Muslim advisory board. Yet here he is, railing against the Jews with the sort of language that only serves to put his own community in a poor light and, ironically, prove the PM's point!

Does the word "irony" mean nothing to him?

It's becoming a familiar pattern: the government says something that upsets the Muslim community, and all the usual suspects cry "Racism! Xenophobia! Persecution!" etc. etc.

Then we learn that some high-profile Muslim nutcase has gone on record, spouting filthy, racist, bigoted, hate-filled rhetoric which encapsulates the very attitudes and views against which the government has been warning us all along.

If the Muslim community really wants to improve its relationship with the rest of Australia, it needs to start taking action against people like Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali. But for some strange reason, that never seems to happen.

How does the Muslim community expect to reveive any credibility when the ranks of its leaders are swelled by men like Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali?

Imagine if this guy had been Anglican or Catholic; imagine the outcry, the rage, the public demonstrations, the calls for his resignation, the insistence that he should be prosecuted for his ugly views, etc. Imagine that!

Yet here we have the leader of the Australian Muslim community vilifying the Jews in language which should have gone out with the Nazis, but nobody bats an eyelid.

I find this appallingly hypocritical.

Vash the Stampede

Vash the Stampede

Oh wow, it just gets better and better!
ABC.

Come again? The PM didn't utter a single word about assimilation; he was talking about integration. Integration and assimilation are two COMPLETELY different things!

In the former, a cultural or ethnic group becomes part of a wider society whilst still retaining its cultural identity. This is how multiculturalism works.

In the latter, a cultural or ethnic group becomes part of a wider society by losing its cultural identity. This is how a homogeneous monoculture is maintained.

It is the former - not the latter - to which Howard referred, and has always upheld as the key to multiculturalism.

Roude should wash his mouth out with salt and soapy water for having the gall to inflame an already contentious issue by misquoting the PM and misrepresenting his views.

seang

I guess ,perhaps, to much emphasis was put on what Howard said. The comments of Dr.Ali would be what I would find worrying.

But the head of the government's new muslim advisory committee, Dr Ameer Ali, warned of trouble unless the prime minister backed down

I dont think a non elected person should be making comments like this to the PM of any country. Sure he is an advisor but if a comment like what Howard made could potenially spark trouble then there is a problem with certain groups within Australian society. As the leader of a country , even if you dont agree with the man, makes a call on what he sees as an issue in the country that he is "incharge" of then it should spark debate but not statements of potential trouble. i.e back off matey or there will be trouble. If Howard had said poms need to stop whining/driving through roundabouts and respect our rules of road I very much doubt that threats of violence would be made. By even suggesting "trouble" the advisor has confirmed Howards concern. Hence Howard was spot on.

Vash the Stampede

Exactly.

Ali's response sounds like a threat - and a nasty one, at that.

Ironically, it also proves Howard's point.

dave777

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...la+truth+about

This video above sheds new light on Cronulla

chels

Maybe it would be better if JH encouraged ALL migrants to conform to Australian values by learning English (if it's not their first language), rather than specifying a particular race or nationality. Some of the issues that are attributed to the Muslim community could also be applied to others.