Australia's burning

Old Jan 3rd 2020, 10:08 am
  #166  
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by Amazulu View Post
So, the drought's got nothing to do with it? Err, okay. Controlled burns are inherently risky at the best of times. Look at the one in the SW of WA a few years ago - very well planned, ideal conditions when they started, yet ended up taking out a couple of houses. Burning after several years of very little rain would be extremely risky - if not impossible

Governments need to get realistic and do more planning. We've always got plenty of helitacs (many of which come from the US) and light fixed-wing bombers - but only 1 largish aircraft - a Boeing 737 leased by the NSW government. There are scores of large fire-fighting aircraft in the US and Canada - and they are very effective. In their winter, they sit idle. Lease some of them during our summer and bring them down here. Expensive yes, but peanuts compared to the human and economic cost of these fires
Personally I do agree with the aircraft issue, Aus should be able to utilise the aircraft a lot sooner and having some based here would solve part of that problem. Its an issue I feel Emergency Management Australia and the state governments should investigate earlier. However there is also the issue that the aircraft have to be able to fly - many of the NSW fires, and also some of the earlier Queensland ones, could not be fought with aerial support because they just could not operate in the conditions. The strong winds,and the amount of ash in the sky, are some of the reasons for this.
And on occasion all aircraft have been grounded due to thoughtless people flying drones in the area.

(personal opinions only)
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Old Jan 3rd 2020, 10:14 am
  #167  
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow View Post
Ah, well, I shall tell my cousin that the brains trust says he's got it wrong. That's all I can do. The Greens obviously need a better p-r advisor.
You would be best advised to tell your cousin to do a little more research. Any of the Australian fire services would say the situation is more complex than he says in his email.
Is he involved in fire or emergency services at all or is his view that of a lay-person relying on open source media?
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Old Jan 3rd 2020, 10:34 am
  #168  
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by Amazulu View Post
So, the drought's got nothing to do with it? Err, okay. Controlled burns are inherently risky at the best of times. Look at the one in the SW of WA a few years ago - very well planned, ideal conditions when they started, yet ended up taking out a couple of houses. Burning after several years of very little rain would be extremely risky - if not impossible

Governments need to get realistic and do more planning. We've always got plenty of helitacs (many of which come from the US) and light fixed-wing bombers - but only 1 largish aircraft - a Boeing 737 leased by the NSW government. There are scores of large fire-fighting aircraft in the US and Canada - and they are very effective. In their winter, they sit idle. Lease some of them during our summer and bring them down here. Expensive yes, but peanuts compared to the human and economic cost of these fires
Just saying 'err o.k; is a little childish. I didn't say draught has nothing to do with it. Controlled burns are by definition, controlled. In any event they are only part of the arsenal available to the authorities.
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Old Jan 3rd 2020, 8:49 pm
  #169  
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Just saying 'err o.k; is a little childish. I didn't say draught has nothing to do with it. Controlled burns are by definition, controlled. In any event they are only part of the arsenal available to the authorities.
I can only speak for the Gospers Mountain fire, but the commissioner said that even if they'd been able to do all the hazard reduction they wanted, it wouldn't have made much of an impact on that fire. I was reading earlier about one of the fire zones down on the south coast of NSW - they'd had hazard reduction over the winter, then they had the fire front go through and thought they were finally in the clear... then when the wind turned it back on itself, they had fireballs lighting up the crowns of the trees and causing another fire incident. Everything is just so incredibly dry

Today is going to be long, hot and stressful.
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Old Jan 3rd 2020, 10:33 pm
  #170  
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by Dreamy View Post
I can only speak for the Gospers Mountain fire, but the commissioner said that even if they'd been able to do all the hazard reduction they wanted, it wouldn't have made much of an impact on that fire. I was reading earlier about one of the fire zones down on the south coast of NSW - they'd had hazard reduction over the winter, then they had the fire front go through and thought they were finally in the clear... then when the wind turned it back on itself, they had fireballs lighting up the crowns of the trees and causing another fire incident. Everything is just so incredibly dry

Today is going to be long, hot and stressful.
It is Dreamy, for all of you who live in and around the bush and for the fire fighters. So many people in the direct line of the fires have chosen to stay and defend, it's their choice and I know a very difficult one but I so wish they'd got out when they could. Of course even if you're not in the direct path of one there's the terrible uncertainty. Can't do anything except wish you all the very best and of course more than anything, hope there are no more deaths.
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Old Jan 4th 2020, 6:49 am
  #171  
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by Dreamy View Post
I can only speak for the Gospers Mountain fire, but the commissioner said that even if they'd been able to do all the hazard reduction they wanted, it wouldn't have made much of an impact on that fire. I was reading earlier about one of the fire zones down on the south coast of NSW - they'd had hazard reduction over the winter, then they had the fire front go through and thought they were finally in the clear... then when the wind turned it back on itself, they had fireballs lighting up the crowns of the trees and causing another fire incident. Everything is just so incredibly dry

Today is going to be long, hot and stressful.
Sitting here in France and watching what's going on over there it's easy to come up with solutions. Those fires are unprecedented and uncontrollable. Everything you say is true, The 'Crowning' you mention is a phenomeme well known to Firefighters and is deadly in that the fire rushes across the tops of forests and traps those on the ground.

I still believe that the Australian government will have a lot to answer for once this is over. It takes capitol investment to mitigate this sort of thing and they have been woefully lacking. Not just this government but past governments. It isn't the fault of the draught. Drought doesn't cause fires. Fires are natural but what is going on there is really the fault of man and the failure to plan for fires.
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Old Jan 4th 2020, 7:22 am
  #172  
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Sitting here in France and watching what's going on over there it's easy to come up with solutions. Those fires are unprecedented and uncontrollable. Everything you say is true, The 'Crowning' you mention is a phenomeme well known to Firefighters and is deadly in that the fire rushes across the tops of forests and traps those on the ground.

I still believe that the Australian government will have a lot to answer for once this is over. It takes capitol investment to mitigate this sort of thing and they have been woefully lacking. Not just this government but past governments. It isn't the fault of the draught. Drought doesn't cause fires. Fires are natural but what is going on there is really the fault of man and the failure to plan for fires.
Actually, drought can cause fires. Lightning strike + exceedingly dry vegetation = fire. However, no one's saying the drought caused all these fires. That the drought has exacerbated them can't be refuted.
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Old Jan 4th 2020, 7:54 am
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse View Post
Actually, drought can cause fires. Lightning strike + exceedingly dry vegetation = fire. However, no one's saying the drought caused all these fires. That the drought has exacerbated them can't be refuted.
Its true to say that lightning causes fires but there doesn't have to be a drought at all. Fires, through lightning strikes occur all over the world, they do here, nothing new in that. It is quite obvious though that the fires in Australia are exacerbated, if anything, by poor management of the countryside. That there has been drought conditions for five years should have been a wake up call to both authorities and landowners.

Where I live I am surrounded by trees and bushes. Fortunately the conditions the Australians are experiencing simply won't happen here but should there ever be an extended drought and risk of fire I would have no hesitation in clearing the trees and shrubs. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I have to say that this was a disaster waiting to happen and should have been dealt with by the authorities.
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Old Jan 4th 2020, 7:59 am
  #174  
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Its true to say that lightning causes fires but there doesn't have to be a drought at all. Fires, through lightning strikes occur all over the world, they do here, nothing new in that. It is quite obvious though that the fires in Australia are exacerbated, if anything, by poor management of the countryside. That there has been drought conditions for five years should have been a wake up call to both authorities and landowners.

Where I live I am surrounded by trees and bushes. Fortunately the conditions the Australians are experiencing simply won't happen here but should there ever be an extended drought and risk of fire I would have no hesitation in clearing the trees and shrubs. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I have to say that this was a disaster waiting to happen and should have been dealt with by the authorities.
Nothing was mentioned about there having to be a drought to have a fire I think you'll find that most Australians are well across the multiple causes of these fires, but thanks for your input.
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Old Jan 4th 2020, 8:05 am
  #175  
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Its true to say that lightning causes fires but there doesn't have to be a drought at all. Fires, through lightning strikes occur all over the world, they do here, nothing new in that. It is quite obvious though that the fires in Australia are exacerbated, if anything, by poor management of the countryside. That there has been drought conditions for five years should have been a wake up call to both authorities and landowners.

Where I live I am surrounded by trees and bushes. Fortunately the conditions the Australians are experiencing simply won't happen here but should there ever be an extended drought and risk of fire I would have no hesitation in clearing the trees and shrubs. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I have to say that this was a disaster waiting to happen and should have been dealt with by the authorities.
I know there has been hazard reduction burns in my area where weather conditions permit, as I'm sure there will have been in other areas. I do think that you are perhaps not appreciating the scale. The following maps are same scale - the first being Saint-Pée-sur-Nivelle whilst the second is from the Victoria emergency site.


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Old Jan 4th 2020, 8:55 am
  #176  
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by old.sparkles View Post
I know there has been hazard reduction burns in my area where weather conditions permit, as I'm sure there will have been in other areas. I do think that you are perhaps not appreciating the scale. The following maps are same scale - the first being Saint-Pée-sur-Nivelle whilst the second is from the Victoria emergency site.

I do appreciate the scale but the basic premise holds true; Back burning is only one form of prevention. These fires didn't reach the magnitude they have overnight did they? My initial comments hold true; There has been a lack of fire management over a number of years and it has now come home to roost. Fire management involves back burning, scrub clearing, fire breaks, water reserves and adequate machinery in the form of aircraft, appliances etc. Quite patently this hasn't happened. I read that 17.5 Billion has been removed from Fire fighting over the years. If true, then that is going to affect all I have mentioned. Prevention is better than cure but if the money isn't spent and government ignore the risks this is what happens.
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Old Jan 4th 2020, 9:08 am
  #177  
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Unhappy Re: Australia's burning, from Fire to Political crisis..

As an outsider many miles from the crisis in Australia, I can only express my deep sympathy for the Australian people at the moment. Just like many other countries, it seems some kind of major incident needs to occur in order to display how incompetent and uncaring the current generation of politicians really are. I watch the news and see the flames and remains of people's homes..it really is quite upsetting. You certainly have a lot of support from around the world and with the well known resilience you will get through it. Let's hope the fatalities are kept to a minimum. Best wishes from the Netherlands.
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Old Jan 4th 2020, 9:16 am
  #178  
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Default Re: Australia's burning, from Fire to Political crisis..

Originally Posted by calman014 View Post
As an outsider many miles from the crisis in Australia, I can only express my deep sympathy for the Australian people at the moment. Just like many other countries, it seems some kind of major incident needs to occur in order to display how incompetent and uncaring the current generation of politicians really are. I watch the news and see the flames and remains of people's homes..it really is quite upsetting. You certainly have a lot of support from around the world and with the well known resilience you will get through it. Let's hope the fatalities are kept to a minimum. Best wishes from the Netherlands.
What a lovely post
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Old Jan 4th 2020, 11:12 am
  #179  
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Sitting here in France and watching what's going on over there it's easy to come up with solutions. Those fires are unprecedented and uncontrollable. Everything you say is true, The 'Crowning' you mention is a phenomeme well known to Firefighters and is deadly in that the fire rushes across the tops of forests and traps those on the ground.

I still believe that the Australian government will have a lot to answer for once this is over. It takes capitol investment to mitigate this sort of thing and they have been woefully lacking. Not just this government but past governments. It isn't the fault of the draught. Drought doesn't cause fires. Fires are natural but what is going on there is really the fault of man and the failure to plan for fires.
That's ok. You sit in France and tell those of us in Australia all about how the fires here are caused.
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Old Jan 4th 2020, 1:50 pm
  #180  
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Default Re: Australia's burning

Originally Posted by Dorothy View Post
That's ok. You sit in France and tell those of us in Australia all about how the fires here are caused.
Australians are well know for their toughness and straight talking. Admirable traits anyone would agree. Sarcasm on the other hand isn't and says something about the person being sarcastic.
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