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Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Old Oct 3rd 2012, 3:23 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Originally Posted by Zen10
Mass DNA collection by force would lower the country down into the sort of place you simply wouldn't want to live. Certain people would of course be exempt, so not everyone would be on it, and as you rightly point out most of these psychos are known to police anyway - as indeed was the case in this latest horror.

I for one would never submit to having my DNA taken so it would have to be taken by force - which they do - consider that for a moment. A decent innocent man pinned to the ground with a boot in his face while state officials violate his body for his personal DNA. Most depressing is that otherwise intelligent people can be so stupid to support this without realising where it will end.
Yep. I'd fight tooth & nail against having DNA taken. Ironically, if I literally fought with teeth & nails, they'd have the DNA sample anyway!

It's a slippery slope to go down, and not one I would ever go down willingly.
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 3:27 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Originally Posted by mrsgreenstar76
Yep. I'd fight tooth & nail against having DNA taken. Ironically, if I literally fought with teeth & nails, they'd have the DNA sample anyway!

It's a slippery slope to go down, and not one I would ever go down willingly.
Quite. All right-thinking people should and must object to it. The US and UK are leading the free world in civil liberties violations (face recog. cameras in US police cars, mass finger-printing and photographs of population, world's biggest CCTV network and DNA database in UK), but Australia will follow these places as well if it's not fought.
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 3:28 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Originally Posted by Zen10
Quite. All right-thinking people should and must object to it. The US and UK are leading the free world in civil liberties violations (face recog. cameras in US police cars, mass finger-printing and photographs of population, world's biggest CCTV network and DNA database in UK), but Australia will follow these places as well if it's not fought.
I completely agree.
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 3:30 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Got to admit the DNA list, is a far more emotive subject than I first realised. I can understand why. I think it's possible as one gets older that the positives in what this would on the surface be trying to acheive comes more to the surface, under the jaded eyes of seeing humanity come up with worse and worse crimes against one another.

I realise those crimes have always taken place, it's just there is more indepth knowledge by more people after the fact these days.

So trying to get the thread back on track, If a 100 pct DNA list in the UK had absoultely stopped what looks like a terrible crime, Would it have been worth it ?
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 3:36 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Originally Posted by ozzieeagle
Got to admit the DNA list, is a far more emotive subject than I first realised. I can understand why. I think it's possible as one gets older that the positives in what this would on the surface be trying to acheive comes more to the surface, under the jaded eyes of seeing humanity come up with worse and worse crimes against one another.

I realise those crimes have always taken place, it's just there is more indepth knowledge by more people after the fact these days.

So trying to get the thread back on track, If a 100 pct DNA list in the UK had absoultely stopped what looks like a terrible crime, Would it be worth it ?
It'll never be 100% accurate. There is always a margin of error, albeit a small one. Quite frankly, no. It wouldn't be worth it. As you say, people have always been capable of committing hideous crimes, but the freedoms, rights & privacy of an entire population are worth more than one person. I'm not going to condemn an entire population to suspicion & surveillance because of the comparatively few deviants in the bunch.
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 3:37 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Many people are equally against CCTV and refer to it as 'Big Brother' stating that it infringes on their human rights and they should be able to go about their business without being watched.

CCTV does not bother me in the slightest and it has caught many a criminal and in the recent rape/murder case of that Irish girl, CCTV saved her family from possibly never finding out where she was buried, not to mention catching the culprit pretty quickly.
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 3:38 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Originally Posted by ozzieeagle
Got to admit the DNA list, is a far more emotive subject than I first realised. I can understand why. I think it's possible as one gets older that the positives in what this would on the surface be trying to acheive comes more to the surface, under the jaded eyes of seeing humanity come up with worse and worse crimes against one another.

I realise those crimes have always taken place, it's just there is more indepth knowledge by more people after the fact these days.

So trying to get the thread back on track, If a 100 pct DNA list in the UK had absoultely stopped what looks like a terrible crime, Would it have been worth it ?
Things aren't getting worse though - this stuff has always happened and far worse as well. Our society used to be an incredibly violent place with war and raping and pillaging everywhere. It's our relative safety from these things that explains why we are so horrified when two men get killed in Afghanistan or one person is abducted, etc.

Treating the entire population like criminals by forcing DNA samples from them will create a terrible resentment, anger, and a massive new wave of DNA-fraud crimes where false DNA samples are left at crime scenes to implicate other people, etc.
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 3:41 am
  #38  
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Originally Posted by Cheetah7
Many people are equally against CCTV and refer to it as 'Big Brother' stating that it infringes on their human rights and they should be able to go about their business without being watched.

CCTV does not bother me in the slightest and it has caught many a criminal and in the recent rape/murder case of that Irish girl, CCTV saved her family from possibly never finding out where she was buried, not to mention catching the culprit pretty quickly.
You could solve even more crimes if CCTV were installed in everyone's houses - would you agree to that?
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 3:53 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Originally Posted by Zen10
You could solve even more crimes if CCTV were installed in everyone's houses - would you agree to that?
Your phone already is a listening device.... unless it's Voip and you dont have Mobiles switched on, with the batteries out.. Take fully your point about DNA being left at a crime scene, which I'll freely admit is probably the major negative that cancels it's effectiveness.... Surely that would be used to target/frame certain individuals and there would be safeguards developed against that, rather than pure evasion.

Still this is getting away from the gist of the thread.

Personally through my experienced eyes, if a DNA list had stopped just this one crime I would be for it.

I've been toying with the idea of CCTV outside my house for a while now. Our local case has pushed me in that direction. The accused definitely knocked on a 19YO girls house down the road asking for local directions, which was a bullsheet excuse, luckily her BF was home at the time, she gave a statement to the Police before the arrest.

I live on a road that leads to a very large park, plus across the road is a car park where things happen all the time... nothing bad in the time I've lived here though. Plus we have laneways out the back, Someone was attacked in the laneway up the top of the road from us about 5 years ago. Then there is the personal security factor as well. So I'm going for it. It's what Gill Meahgers mother asked for, so I'm happy to oblige.

Last edited by ozzieeagle; Oct 3rd 2012 at 3:55 am.
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 3:57 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Originally Posted by Zen10
You could solve even more crimes if CCTV were installed in everyone's houses - would you agree to that?
No I dont but what is wrong with CCTV outside? It is not our right to break the law as we see fit and then get angry when it is caught on camera, CCTV has helped catch many a criminal and been used in court against them to secure a guilty verdict.

Do you honestly believe we should have no CCTV? - none at all?

I bet the family of Jill Meagher would beg to differ on that, the guy responsible for her death was identified and caught pretty quickly thanks to CCTV.

Last edited by Cheetah7; Oct 3rd 2012 at 4:00 am.
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 3:58 am
  #41  
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Originally Posted by ozzieeagle
Your phone already is a listening device.... unless it's Voip and you dont have Mobiles switched on, with the batteries out.. Take fully your point about DNA being left at a crime scene, which I'll freely admit is probably the major negative that cancels it's effectiveness.... Surely that would be used to target/frame certain individuals and there would be safeguards developed against that, rather than pure evasion.

Still this is getting away from the gist of the thread.

Personally through my experienced eyes, if a DNA list had stopped just this one crime I would be for it.

I've been toying with the idea of CCTV outside my house for a while now. Our local case has pushed me in that direction. The accused definitely knocked on a 19YO girls house down the road asking for local directions, which was a bullsheet excuse, luckily her BF was home at the time, she gave a statement to the Police before the arrest. I live on a road that leads to a very large park, plus across the road is a car park where things happen all the time... nothing bad in the time I've lived here though. Plus we have laneways out the back, Someone was attacked in the laneway up the top of the road from us about 5 years ago. Then there is the personal security factor as well. So I'm going for it. It's what Gill Meahgers mother asked for, so I'm happy to oblige.
Yes, because Jill Meagher's mother has asked for it, that means we should comply? No, I don't think so. Whilst it's sad that she's lost her daughter, it doesn't mean the rest of the population should be treated like criminals.

This is still getting away from the gist of the thread. The thread isn't about the use of DNA & its moral implications, it's about a child being missing in Wales.
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 4:02 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Originally Posted by Cheetah7
No I dont but what is wrong with CCTV outside? It is not our right to break the law as we see fit, it has helped catch many a criminal and been used in court against them.

Do you honestly believe we should have no CCTV?

I bet the family of Jill Meagher would beg to differ on that, the guy responsible for her death was identified and caught pretty quickly thanks to CCTV.
It's well within our rights to break the law. However, we have to accept the consequences of that. I can choose whether I'm going to break the law or not. That is my decision & mine alone. I choose not to, and should be able to enjoy the freedoms of being a member of society in good standing. I shouldn't have to be treated with suspicion, like a potential criminal, as a reward of behaving lawfully.
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 4:03 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Lets hope there is some news on this little girl soon, I read that the cops are checking tyre marks by the river or something.

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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 4:05 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Originally Posted by Cheetah7
Lets hope there is some news on this little girl soon, I read that the cops are checking tyre marks by the river or something.

I agree. I really hope that there's a happy ending to this.
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Old Oct 3rd 2012, 4:05 am
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Default Re: Another abduction case... this time Wales.

Originally Posted by mrsgreenstar76
It's well within our rights to break the law. However, we have to accept the consequences of that. I can choose whether I'm going to break the law or not. That is my decision & mine alone. I choose not to, and should be able to enjoy the freedoms of being a member of society in good standing. I shouldn't have to be treated with suspicion, like a potential criminal, as a reward of behaving lawfully.
But is CCTV that much of an issue? I dont even think about it as I go about my business.

The fact that it has helped a lot of people as in victims of crimes having their attackers caught, or families of victims etc, how is that a bad thing?
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