Originally Posted by augigi

Good lord, you people are pretty defensive. Is this not a discussion board? For er.. discussing things?

I'm just saying, there's no point posting your "experience" and coming to exactly no conclusions. Lots of people can point out the errors of the government's ways, but that's not at all helpful. I was merely asking, in your opinion, as you have claimed to have a good understanding of the issues, what solutions you propose to the problems? I don't "expect" anything from you, and certainly not a "perfect solution". Neither did I say anywhere not to say anything if you have nothing nice to say.

What hope is there for reconciliation when people can't even discuss this without being jumped on?

Originally Posted by worzel

Excellent post / thread. I just got confirmation today of my booking on a two day cultural awareness course in the Pilbara at the start of July. So long as I don't have to eat Witchety grubs I am really looking forward to it.

My first exposure to aboriginals was on a holiday down under 5 years ago. I saw those busking in the street in Melbourne and the museum guide in Adelaide who was half-caste and felt a mixture of pride and shame, it seemed, to have integrated to western culture so well. We saw some families going "walkabout" on the Ghan train and were impressed by their preparation for the trip. In New Zealand we saw how the whites and Maori's have integrated relatively well. Then in Sydney / Melbourne we heard about the way settlers treated them worse than animals and how the government didn't even recognise them as humans until the 60's or 70's.

We went home feeling sorry for these people, like you might for any race pushed out of their homelands. Months later, at a family barbecue, we met an Aussie guy who was back in the UK for the first time in years and when we expressed our pity for the aboriginals were shocked by the foul-mouthed abuse directed towards them (though he did respect Sam for getting drunk and having a slanging match with him)

Now we live here in a city my main exposure to Aboriginals is generally to the drunks hurling abuse or smelling of BO in the city or on the train. I must confess my first reaction was to fear / dislike them. But on reflection I see many more white people pissed and abusive or stinking on the train.

I am proud to work for a company that goes out of their way to support the indigenous Australians. We spend a lot of time and money with welfare / training programmes in the Pilbara, have employment targets etc (Ok, some of this is PR-related but much more than that). We even offer work contracts that allows the indigenous to give short notice so they can go walkabout for months at a time.

All things said, it must be really hard for the aboriginals to know what to think. Do they look enviously at us wealthy people going about our way in fancy cars, nice clothes etc; do they hate us for muscling in on their nation; do they look at "us" with disdain that we give them money for nothing so they can go on the piss for free (I enjoy that too at sundowners) or do they regret that a proud tradition that has enabled their kind to live off an inhospitable land for 10's of thousands of years is being eroded? Probably all of the above, and unable to reconcile those different feelings.

Originally Posted by seang

I am doing a copy and paste of one of my own posts here. Its a subject(one of few) that I feel strongly about.

As some of you may remember when rabbit proof fence and similar films/books get mentioned Seang usually refers to the "orphans" (many were not orphans) sent over to Aus. Usually my point being that it was not just Aboriginal children that were mistreated or taken and yet the white europeans that were sent over get very little if any "mediafication". Very little was ever done for these people (many now dead).
I was forwarded this article from the Sunday Times that was published this weekend you may like to read.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2139344.ece

Originally Posted by augigi

Good lord, you people are pretty defensive. Is this not a discussion board? For er.. discussing things?

I'm just saying, there's no point posting your "experience" and coming to exactly no conclusions. Lots of people can point out the errors of the government's ways, but that's not at all helpful. I was merely asking, in your opinion, as you have claimed to have a good understanding of the issues, what solutions you propose to the problems? I don't "expect" anything from you, and certainly not a "perfect solution". Neither did I say anywhere not to say anything if you have nothing nice to say.

What hope is there for reconciliation when people can't even discuss this without being jumped on?

Originally Posted by Bordy

Good post HS.

Originally Posted by augigi

What hope is there for reconciliation when people can't even discuss this without being jumped on?

Originally Posted by haggis supper

And why exactly do I have to come to a conclusion ? There seems to be plenty of people making ill informed decisions in here having reached their own conclusions based on hee haw, rumours and unreliable hyped media reporting that sways from one side to the other.

I never suggested that I had an answer - I said that I hoped to offer a balanced viewpoint. It appears that most folk have only negative experiences or preconceptions about the aboriginal community, as I did. I merely offered my own personal experiences and how that had changed my view.

I love how you expect a neat little solution based on my 3 days. You should work in government - "right then Mr Haggis, what shall we do with these black fellas? You know them. Come on man, what do we do?"

Originally Posted by haggis supper

I've watched with interest at many of the recent posts re "sorry". Having spent 3 days on an "indigenous awareness" project last year down in Warnambool, Victoria through an employer sponsored initiative perhaps I can offer what I hope is a balanced viewpoint. Sorry for the long post.

Prior to this I had bugger all knowledge of the aborginal way of life, indeed my exposure was limited to Crocodile Dundee and brief news reports on black fellas up in the Northern Territories sniffing petrol and living in squalor.

However these few days offered a completely different and balanced perspective.

Whilst many of the true atrocities were perpetrated about 100 years ago, the impact of actions as recently as the 70's have had a devastating effect. I spent a lot of time with a very decent bloke, Lenny, who had his son, Brandon, forcibly removed from him in 1974, when the boy was 4 - and not because they lived in squalor or were being abused. The boy was placed with a white family (english) in Sydney. Brandon was taken to england when he was about 10 when the foster father died and the foster mother could no longer cope in Australia. Brandon grew up in Hampshire.

Lenny made many attempts to contact Brandon/foster family and finally tracked them down about 3 years ago. When he was able to contact the foster mother he was told that Brandon died the year before in a motobike accident in Basingstoke. Lenny never got to meet up with his son again.

Bizarrely, Brandon was born in the same year as me and is buried in Basingstoke - the town that I spent my last 7 years before coming to Australia. His foster mother still lives there. I spoke with her recently and she confirmed that Brandon gave no indication of being abused or living in squalor.

When Lenny described this and his experiences of growing up as a black fella he was clearly angry, bitter and resentful. He maintains that he was constantly victimised and arrested for no reason. However he, and the others that I met do not want to dwell on the past. "Sorry" is important but doesn't change anything. They do not want compensation. They do not want favours.

What they want is to be understood. They have been forced to change their cultures and experiences dramatically in such a short period of time. Many aborigines are not comfortable with this. One guy that I met said that he has a wonderful new flat but cannot live in it. He needs to be out and closer to the land. I can't relate to that but respect his view.

The folks I met were open and honest about the problems they experience - some of it directed at them (e.g. racial abuse) and others of their own making. They recognise that there is a drug, drink and crime problem. The realise that a minority amongst them give them a very bad name. However given that the vast majority are living in poverty their problems are no different to the problems experienced in every deprived inner city in any country.

They do not deny this, but need help that also recognises the reality of the problem. I spent an afternoon with a community project who receive government funding. They readily accept that the aborigine community lack many basic skills and therefore find it hard to comply with the strict government requirements. For example to continue to receive funding and support they need to provide the government with a detailed and structured 15 year plan. That is beyond the capabilities of most of the folk involved - hence they have asked my employers (NAB) if we can assist. Not financial help but expertise in planning and writing, using computers etc. If they fail to comply they lose funding.

Giving houses and money alone is not the solution. I'm not sure what is, and I don't think they do either.

There were 12 of us on this course, 10 were australian. It was incredible the level of ignorance and the views that had been formed. 9 of the 10 felt completely different having spent 3 days getting a different perspective. Its easy to say that they are a bunch of petrol sniffing criminals who abuse their familes and take money for nothing.

Anyway, I now have a more balanced view. It's pointless apportioning blame for things that happened many years ago. However it is important to recognise the devastating effect this has had and the depth of the problems and that there is no easy solution, especially with people who have a culture that is so different to ours.

Originally Posted by youngy73

i would have to say that they are amongst the most rascist of all people i have ever met. most want everything for nothing and its always someone elses fault. governments are scared of upsetting them. i have done a bit of work in some of the missions on cape york and it aint pretty. they live like animals.they destroy just about everything that is given to them then put there hands out again. it gives you the shits when you see people getting everything for nothing when you have to work your arse off to pay for the roof over your head.

Originally Posted by burtreynoldsisonit

Am I the only one who finds it hypocritical that we try to change other cultures to be more like our own, yet our way has so many holes in it you could strain rice?

"You shouldn't live on the land, you should live in a house. It's simpler and will make your life a lot more comfortable. That's what we do, it's what we've always done. Join us. Just remember to pay your council tax, your mortgage and your bills on time. If you have bad credit and can't make payments on loans you've taken out, your house may be ceased by the bank. This means that the bank will take your home from you and sell it as means to pay off your debt. If the money from the sale of your home still does not cover your debt, you will be made to pay the difference or be put in prison for an extended amount of time dependant upon the amount you owe. When you come out of jail you will be broke and homeless. Then you'll be in the street earning coins, chasing cars and biting tyres. People will judge you and tell you to get a job. You'll need a source of income if you ever want to get back on that property ladder, tiger . "

Why can't we just sit down and leave people alone?