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Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Old Feb 5th 2010, 8:54 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Well said on both sides. Hoping the conversation continues.

Have a great weekend

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Old Feb 6th 2010, 2:31 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

BeachZombie,

You said, "I get the sense that people don't really want more immigrants and it doesn't matter where they come from either." I am curious. What have people said or done to give you that impression?
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Old Feb 7th 2010, 12:56 am
  #18  
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Originally Posted by Ikon
I find Hoad's comments negative and inflammatory, not only in the obvious way (towards immigrants), but also towards Barbadians. It implies native Bajans are too backwards-thinking and insular to look outside and seek development or wealth-generation. That's not very positive, is it?!

I also find his comments that Barbados's problems with crime, violence etc are caused by immigration entirely xenophobic.

I am impressed with his claims to speak for "the people" though. I wonder how many of the island's 260,000 residents he's spoken to in order to come to his conclusions?
Hoad is popular and greatly respected b/c he is plain speaking to Bajans and non-Bajans alike. He does have the pulse of Barbados.

You also mis-characterise his comments. He did NOT say that immigration has caused Barbados's problems. If you were around under Owen Arthur years and the direction he was taking Barbados, you might be able to understand his article and its context.

You may not like it, but Hoad knows exactly what he's talking about-- and he's right.
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Old Feb 7th 2010, 1:24 am
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Originally Posted by karibspices
Hoad is popular and greatly respected b/c he is plain speaking to Bajans and non-Bajans alike. He does have the pulse of Barbados.

You also mis-characterise his comments. He did NOT say that immigration has caused Barbados's problems. If you were around under Owen Arthur years and the direction he was taking Barbados, you might be able to understand his article and its context.

You may not like it, but Hoad knows exactly what he's talking about-- and he's right.
I think those who feel the need to express an opinion by insisting it's right in such strong terms are perhaps way too involved? Take a step back and realise that actually nobody can represent everyone in Barbados, and can't possibly be "right" - there are shades of grey and different opinions. I'd probably find your comments more persuasive if you talked about how you feel about it, and expressed your personal agreement with him, rather than making blanket statements like "Oh yes, he's 100% right, everyone in Barbados thinks the same".

You'd probably be wise not to make assumptions about people's connection to the island - I've spent much of the last decade here, and understand the issues well. I still disagree strongly with Hoad.

If you think there are facts people aren't aware of that would further inform the debate, why don't you provide them? It would be a much more positive contribution to the debate. I think it looks foolish when you challenge someone else's level of understanding but fail to demonstrate your own.

Did you read this sentence when you said I'd mischaracterised Hoad's words?: "We hear the disenchanted moans of visitors from "developed" countries every day. We see their lifestyles in the news, the crime, violence, racial and religious tension, terrorism, breakdown of society. Why should we make the same mistakes." You think that doesn't imply that immigration is the cause of the problems he mentions? What other cause is he pointing to then, because I'm blind if I can't see it?!

And all I can say for the Bajans who do popularise and like this fellow... Well, they're obviously happy to be portrayed as stupid and backwards, because according to him NONE of them want the island to develop.

My opinion on this issue is that it's actually a generational issue - I agree with Hoad that older Bajans, who remember a time before the development, would like to see it slow down. But as a younger person, whose Bajan friends are in their 20s and 30s, I would say the exact opposite is true. If anything, they're frustrated by what they regard as the slow pace of development. I think many of them take what I consider to be the more reasonable attitude that skilled, wealth-generating immigrants are vital to creating a strong, rich Barbados. I think they enjoy the job opportunities and diverse social scene that foreign investment has created here. I'm certain that a great number of Bajans would not wish to be associated with Hoad's inflammatory, xenophobic statements for a second.

Last edited by Ikon; Feb 7th 2010 at 1:39 am.
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Old Feb 7th 2010, 2:46 pm
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Ikon,
Richard Hoad has been a part of Bajan culture for the last 30 years, just like pudding and sousse is, I have read his column for most of those years, and believe me , he likes to take the piss out of every and any one, and that is all he does.
His columns are entertainment and not directed to any one specific, few people take him serious( as far as his colums are concerned ), just look at it as a good laugh.
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Old Feb 7th 2010, 2:54 pm
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

It wasn't me who decided to post Hoad's comments as a serious contribution to the debate, Bamiskados. I was just replying to the posters who consider his comments valuable and genuine.

I think it's obvious that I consider these particular comments the irrelevant rants of an old fool. His comments on development aren't useful because it's going to happen either way - the debate should be how, not if, at this point. If I came across his column in a newspaper, I would skip straight past it.

Last edited by Ikon; Feb 7th 2010 at 2:59 pm.
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Old Feb 7th 2010, 2:59 pm
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Did anyone happen to attend the meeting on the Green Paper at the Alexandra School this week btw?
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Old Feb 7th 2010, 7:18 pm
  #23  
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

It's interesting Tanisha that this is your first post on the site, but you comment says "always at a loss.....". Maybe you're in fact the person whose comments were deleted? As you say, I'll 'leave that to be pondered by others for now'.

If you're referring to my use of the words stupid and backwards, those words were employed in analysis of Hoad's column and not personally directed at any user on this site. The comments deleted by a moderator above were of an entirely different nature, they were made as a personal attack with no reasoning because the person happens to disagree with my opinions and presumably couldn't find a better way to express that.

If you've picked up from my words that I think foreigners should come into the country and spearhead development, you haven't read what I've written carefully enough. I actually make it clear that I believe young Bajans are those pushing for change, and that I think it's a great idea to use foreign cash or skills to facilitate this where necessary. That's entirely different to the idea of foreigners coming in and taking over, or forcing any unwelcome changes upon Barbados.

I think there is an issue here of people coming onto the site who are simply anti-immigration, and they're twisting words to fit that agenda.
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Old Feb 7th 2010, 10:08 pm
  #24  
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Can we get back to the subject now of the Green paper rather than just arguing back and forth about immigration - people visiting and native tothis country are bound to have opposing views but this is not a political debating site so lets keep to the subject please
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Old Feb 7th 2010, 11:54 pm
  #25  
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Originally Posted by Tanisha
I am always at a loss on this site as to why some commenters' comments are deleted while others that are equally inflammatory are allowed. Several of the comments made by expats are personal comments addressed to individuals, but their comments have not been deleted. I'll leave that issue to be pondered by others for now.
There's a hierarchy around here... you'll get used to it.
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Old Feb 8th 2010, 12:17 am
  #26  
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Originally Posted by Ikon
I think those who feel the need to express an opinion by insisting it's right in such strong terms are perhaps way too involved? Take a step back and realise that actually nobody can represent everyone in Barbados, and can't possibly be "right" - there are shades of grey and different opinions. I'd probably find your comments more persuasive if you talked about how you feel about it, and expressed your personal agreement with him, rather than making blanket statements like "Oh yes, he's 100% right, everyone in Barbados thinks the same".

You'd probably be wise not to make assumptions about people's connection to the island - I've spent much of the last decade here, and understand the issues well. I still disagree strongly with Hoad.

If you think there are facts people aren't aware of that would further inform the debate, why don't you provide them? It would be a much more positive contribution to the debate. I think it looks foolish when you challenge someone else's level of understanding but fail to demonstrate your own.

Did you read this sentence when you said I'd mischaracterised Hoad's words?: "We hear the disenchanted moans of visitors from "developed" countries every day. We see their lifestyles in the news, the crime, violence, racial and religious tension, terrorism, breakdown of society. Why should we make the same mistakes." You think that doesn't imply that immigration is the cause of the problems he mentions? What other cause is he pointing to then, because I'm blind if I can't see it?!

And all I can say for the Bajans who do popularise and like this fellow... Well, they're obviously happy to be portrayed as stupid and backwards, because according to him NONE of them want the island to develop.

My opinion on this issue is that it's actually a generational issue - I agree with Hoad that older Bajans, who remember a time before the development, would like to see it slow down. But as a younger person, whose Bajan friends are in their 20s and 30s, I would say the exact opposite is true. If anything, they're frustrated by what they regard as the slow pace of development. I think many of them take what I consider to be the more reasonable attitude that skilled, wealth-generating immigrants are vital to creating a strong, rich Barbados. I think they enjoy the job opportunities and diverse social scene that foreign investment has created here. I'm certain that a great number of Bajans would not wish to be associated with Hoad's inflammatory, xenophobic statements for a second.
He is referring to the envy that Bajans have of those countries and the desire to be like them at all costs. Whether through immigration, emigration or emulation. If you say you understand the issues, then how can you say Hoad does not represent the people??? The people said they had enough of Owen's funny business in immigration and he was voted out. How clear can the correlation between his article and the minds of the majority be?

Plenty people are more frustrated by what "development" means to the average Bajans. Bajans welcome forex from tourism and investment, but that is useless if it goes out just as quickly to afford the staggering import food bill. It's primarily about what you have to sacrifice to be considered "First World." It has nothing to do with being stupid and backward. Brazil had issues with their dependence on foreign oil. So they used their existing sugar plantations to develop fuel centered on ethanol and required ethanol vehicles in their country. Are they stupid for looking within when others still look without? Bajans and non-Bajans can and have worked hand-in-hand for years. But that relationship is hurt if non-Bajans feel that any Bajans who has a descenting opinion of how immigration was handled under Owen Arthur is stupid for their opinions.

Here's another opinion from Vincentian Prime Minister Ralph Gonsalves...

...The St. Vincent and the Grenadines government says it will not permit the sale of passports as an inducement to get foreigners to invest in the country.

Prime Minister Dr. Ralph Gonsalves told Parliament on Friday that his administration would no longer engage in the practice and would resist any attempts to do so.

A number of Eastern Caribbean countries had embarked on the citizenship scheme as a means of luring foreign investment to their countries....


ST VINCENT: Prime Minister says citizenship not for sale
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Old Feb 8th 2010, 12:42 am
  #27  
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

We were asked to move on from this and back to the Green Paper, so apologies to the mods......

I said very clearly that I believe Hoad represents the views of some Bajan people. I went on to explain that I think it's partly a generational issue, and that other Bajans would loathe to be associated with his comments. I explained that I think anyone claiming to be talking for a whole country is wrong. Whether it's a majority or not is really not relevant to what I said at all.

The issues you raise about development of course need to be addressed. But I would consider it backwards-looking to decide the best solution to those problems is to put a halt on development, foreign investment or immigration. We need to look for new solutions to new problems, not just do what we've always done. When they don't exist internally, then Barbados should take advantage of foreign resources. That means compromises to achieve the greater goal, and those sacrifices will mean more to some than others, but I was very clear on the fact that I don't think that should mean any kind of immigration free-for-all. I welcome controlled immigration as much as anyone else, I'm much happier living somewhere that only invites in those with something to offer the country or a genuine claim to citizenship.

I appreciate being challenged on my views from someone providing genuine information, by the way. What I don't appreciate is twisting words to suit your agenda - I didn't say anyone was stupid for their politics or views on Owen Arthur. I very wisely did my best to keep politics out of it, I don't think this board is the place for it. Go back to my original words - I said Hoad "implies native Bajans are too backwards-thinking and insular to look outside and seek development or wealth-generation." As you said, Bajans and people of other nationalities have worked together for a long time, and I think Hoad is implying something negative about his people when he says they shouldn't or don't wish to.

There is an implied suggestion in his column that foreign investment shouldn't be taken at all to develop the island, and that it's been solely responsible for all of Barbados's problems. I'd suggest anyone genuinely taking that view seriously is at best xenophobic.

I hope we can move on from this issue now, as we've been asked to, but I would ask one question - if you're opposed to immigration, why spend time hanging around a site for ex-pats? It gives the impression you're just here for conflict.

Last edited by Ikon; Feb 8th 2010 at 12:47 am.
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Old Feb 8th 2010, 4:53 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Originally Posted by Ikon
We were asked to move on from this and back to the Green Paper, so apologies to the mods......

I said very clearly that I believe Hoad represents the views of some Bajan people. I went on to explain that I think it's partly a generational issue, and that other Bajans would loathe to be associated with his comments. I explained that I think anyone claiming to be talking for a whole country is wrong. Whether it's a majority or not is really not relevant to what I said at all.

The issues you raise about development of course need to be addressed. But I would consider it backwards-looking to decide the best solution to those problems is to put a halt on development, foreign investment or immigration. We need to look for new solutions to new problems, not just do what we've always done. When they don't exist internally, then Barbados should take advantage of foreign resources. That means compromises to achieve the greater goal, and those sacrifices will mean more to some than others, but I was very clear on the fact that I don't think that should mean any kind of immigration free-for-all. I welcome controlled immigration as much as anyone else, I'm much happier living somewhere that only invites in those with something to offer the country or a genuine claim to citizenship.

I appreciate being challenged on my views from someone providing genuine information, by the way. What I don't appreciate is twisting words to suit your agenda - I didn't say anyone was stupid for their politics or views on Owen Arthur. I very wisely did my best to keep politics out of it, I don't think this board is the place for it. Go back to my original words - I said Hoad "implies native Bajans are too backwards-thinking and insular to look outside and seek development or wealth-generation." As you said, Bajans and people of other nationalities have worked together for a long time, and I think Hoad is implying something negative about his people when he says they shouldn't or don't wish to.

There is an implied suggestion in his column that foreign investment shouldn't be taken at all to develop the island, and that it's been solely responsible for all of Barbados's problems. I'd suggest anyone genuinely taking that view seriously is at best xenophobic.

I hope we can move on from this issue now, as we've been asked to, but I would ask one question - if you're opposed to immigration, why spend time hanging around a site for ex-pats? It gives the impression you're just here for conflict.

I also intend to move forward, but do want to clarify briefly. I am a Bajan by descent myself, born of Bajans who emigrated to other countries. My father also lived in the UK for a time as well. I also have UK-born relatives who moved "back" to Barbados. So I, as well as the vast majority of Bajans are not opposed to immigration or emigration at all.

As for the "conflict" -- I don't think we can all have the same viewpoint on a given topic, but opposing viewpoints ought to be allowed.
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Old Feb 8th 2010, 8:36 pm
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Originally Posted by karibspices
There's a hierarchy around here... you'll get used to it.
What hierachy is that then Karib? The person you responded to had been banned and came on as another name after being warned about 7 times for flinging "personal" comments at other members!!!!
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Old Feb 9th 2010, 12:44 pm
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Default Re: Immigration Town Hall Meetings on Green Paper

Originally Posted by Serendipidy
What hierachy is that then Karib? The person you responded to had been banned and came on as another name after being warned about 7 times for flinging "personal" comments at other members!!!!


Personal comments towards members by other members have been allowed without moderation.
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