karibspices

Ikon, you assessment of immigration to Barbados and the reason why Bajans are unhappy with the rapid pace of immigration is entirely inaccurate and borderline ridiculous.

Immigrants to Barbados come in all walks of life and not all are remotely interested in anything having to do with providing lasting opportunities for the people or the country that will make it a more developed nation.

Anyways, its only 166 sq miles and then its all gone and all the people who "love Barbados " will go to and find another country to rape. Ah, the price of progress.....

Serendipidy

I wont start with a comment like Wrong!! cos that would just be rude. What i will say is im not aware of asylum seekers from poland or slovakia hmmm how wrong am i then??

The polish community is an extremely hard working community - I am not talking about European citizens and my point was in relation to social housing not benefits as such

Ikon

How can it possibly be inaccurate? The law is that people coming to work in Barbados should only be doing so if they're doing something a Bajan could not do - surely that would be defined as contributing to the economic development of the country? I think that's what the immigration regulations are specifically aimed at, maybe not historically but certainly now.

My point is that it's a completely different situation from the UK. For example, a European person can move to the UK and immediately claim benefits, social housing etc. As a British person, I couldn't just decide to move to Barbados and ask the government for help. I have to either (a) support myself, or (b) do a job Bajans can't do, ie. contribute to the economic development of the country.

The effect of economic development is that Barbados has got richer, and that's driven prices up. As a result, locals can't afford the houses they once did and some are p*ssed off. My point is that that's basically tough luck, that's the reality of capitalism. You either develop your skills at the same pace, or you're left behind and can't afford what you once could (eg. the initial point someone made about locals having to move out of area).

If you want to talk about geographical cost, I agree that the government was short-sighted about the development of a small island. This is because they were obviously focused on economic development, and that IS unfortunate, but I don't see much point on moaning about the past. All they can do is put better regulations in about future land development, but there has to be a balance. The government's choice might be - "Do we allow a $600m building project to come here and lose some land, or do we preserve our beautiful country?" It's not an easy choice, is it?!

And you seem to have misread or misinterpreted to fit your own agenda much of what I've said. I didn't suggest immigrants were interested in the country's long-term future or development, I said the GOVERNMENT required them to contribute to it. There's a big difference between those two statements. I came here for a more relaxed pace of life, for sunshine, because I love the island etc. They were MY motivations. The GOVERNMENT's motivations for allowing me to live here were, to put it crudely, that I have a reasonable amount of money, ie. contributing to the economic development of Barbados.

Again, I don't see why you think any of what I've said is inaccurate.

Oh, and I didn't discuss what Bajans feel - I only spoke about the realities and differences between UK and Bajan immigration. I'm sure Bajan people have many different reasons for disliking the pace of immigrations, but that's got nothing to do with what I wrote about. I'm not sure you read what I wrote very carefully, to be honest, because your reply is to do with an entirely different side of the debate to the one which I addressed.

And by the way, I think it's unhelpful when people on this board say that each other's posts are "ridiculous" - we're all entitled to opinions, and you should be able to express disagreement in a less provocative way. Using the word "inaccurate" without going on to provide evidence also lessens the impact of anything you say. Maybe starting posts with "I disagree because....." would be more productive for everybody, because using language designed to 'get each other's backs up' will not make this board a pleasant or socialable place for people to visit.

karibspices

The ridiculousness of your statement is your attempt to summarise the reasons why Bajans may have reservations towards immigration to the idea that they are disgruntled by "Pace Ahead foreigners". How easy it is to judge, huh?

The same immigrants who pat themselves on the back for bringing all those unskilled jobs to Barbados don't have clean hands. It's ridiculous to pretend that there is no correlation between the increased development in Barbados and striking lack of Bajans in authority positions in these same companies.

"Contributing to economic development"--- I'd love to see the data on where the money really goes.

Why England was injected into this I have no idea. Totally different countries, totally different situations.

As for the board, I'm already well aware of the atmosphere here, so you needn't be concerned.

Ikon

Well, the comparison drawn between the UK & Barbados was drawn by somebody else (Serendipity or Reslax, can't remember?), and it was their point I responded to. You may consider it irrelevant - so did I, which was why I drew broad comparisons between the two.

And I didn't say that Bajans were opposed to immigration because of not keeping up with development from foreigners, you've completely twisted the words to suit your agenda there. I said they object to DEVELOPMENT and they object to not being able to afford the homes they want to live in, I didn't say that they made the link to IMMIGRATION. That link was one that I made. There was no judgement of Bajan people in general there at all, I said those individuals who wish to have a better quality of life need to keep up, and they will get what they want - that's wasn't a judgement or summary of how everybody feels. There was no attempt to "summarise" - and even if I had, as I stated previously I find your lack of respect for other people's opinions inappropriate. You can simply reply: "Actually, I think....." To summarise someone's opinion as "ridiculous" because you happen to disagree with it makes you seem unintelligent and unreasonable.

As for the issues you raise about the lack of Bajans in senior positions, or where the government spend the money that we as foreign investors bring in, how is that the responsibility of immigrants? That's an issue for the government to address through regulation and responsible spending. Or are investors supposed to turn around and say "I'll only spend my money in your country if you tell me exactly where my tax $ are going to be spent". Of course not, your issue is with the government, not the immigrant/foreign investor.

You're so determined to fit someone else's words to your agenda that you've missed the only point my original post was making is exactly the same as one you've just made (which proves how carefully you read and understood it). You say the UK is "totally different country, totally different situation". Go back a couple of posts and you'll see that's actually the only point I was trying to make.

You say you're aware of the atmosphere on this board. I generally find it positive, but I think it might work much better to talk about what you think & why you think it, rather than attacking someone else's opinions with negative, antagonistic language. It comes across as trolling when you inject unnecessary personal remarks. When I disagreed with the person who drew comparisons with the UK, I didn't open my post with "You're stupid, you're wrong", and I'm sure that person felt I'd been respectful towards them.

karibspices

Development in Barbados is tied to foreign investment, ownership, gov't pordecures and immigration policy. They are not separate because Barbados is such a small island. Reducing discontentment with the current state of Barbados in regards to development to simply the cries of the "out-paced disgruntles" is inaccurate.

I understand this is a sensitive topic. But, I am not attacking you and have made no disparaging remarks on your character. I disagree with your views and have only concentrated on those views in my posts. You have chosen to take it personal and you should stop doing that. It's common to call people trolls when you don't like what they have to say and wish to silence them.

Ikon

It's personal and disparaging to say someone's "ridiculous". There are no ridiculous opinions, only ones you disagree with.

It's "common" to say something's "ridiculous" when you don't like what they have to say and wish to silence them.

Something I might find "ridiculous" is that you say something is "inaccurate" but offer no proof to back it up. Debate of accuracy/inaccuracy requires evidence/facts, you don't seem to have those so I suggest you quit banging on about accuracy because frankly it undermines anything else you express. People I know may think something different to people you know - neither of us can speak for a nation, we can only say "I think.........." How can you presume to assess the accuracy of a statement when you're failing to supply any evidence or facts?

And yes, of course those things are linked - I made the link between those exact things in my original post! That doesn't mean the average Bajan does, or that every Bajan does. I spoke very specifically about the Bajans who have had to move away from the area they know due to land prices - that's not EVERY Bajan, is it???? I said those particular people disliked the pace of development because they're not keeping up, and that leads to discontent with the immigration situation (in my opinion unfairly).

The problem with land prices that Barbados faces is nothing to do with immigrants - we would much prefer to come here and buy a home cheaper than we could in the UK or US. This problem began with GOVERNMENT driving up prices and taxing foreign investors, and the original LAND OWNERS who sold for the highest prices they could, until we reach the situation we're now in where locals are driven out. These problems are RELATED to immigration, not CAUSED by it - the fault lies primarily with greed in Barbados when this all started many decades ago.

As I said, I consider anyone who uses unncecessarily provocative language on an internet message board to be a troll, and you did do that by using words such as "ridiculous" and "inaccurate". Those words are clearly designed to provoke a response, so please don't say you didn't "attack". Take a step back and ask yourself why you didn't just write: "Actually, I believe the situation is more like this......". Instead, you opted for the unnecessarily negative sentiment. It was to provoke a reaction: trolling. If you had simply said "I disagree and I think...", I wouldn't take umbrage, but it's very insulting and rude to attack in the way you did. Maybe you consider rudeness acceptable on here, but I don't care for it and I'm sure most users would prefer we treat each other respectfully.

karibspices

I never said you were ridiculous, I said your opinion was b/c it attempted to summarise the reasoning behind Bajan discontent in relation to development, foreign investment and immigration in a way that I believed was both unfair and disparaging to Bajans. But I am glad that you moved away from blaming disgruntled "out-paced" Bajans and recognise the role that unfettered greed--both inside and out of Barbados has played in the current situation.

It should be noted that I have made no personal insults towards you or negative implications on your character, as you have continued to do towards me.

But, since you've styled yourself an authority on all things, you may certainly have the last word.

CHEERS!

Ikon

Ok, well let's all throw around the personal and unnecessarily provocative language........ We'll see where this gets us.

I find the style and tone of your posts in this thread childish, pathetic and ridiculous. You can't handle someone having an opinion that's different to yours, so you employ juvenile language to try and undermine it, but all you achieve is making yourself look demented.

My opinion is DIFFERENT, not RIDICULOUS. It's also not INACCURATE, unless perhaps you've carried out an opinion poll of the entire island and can provide statistics to disprove my original post? You completely ignored my point about how you could have expressed your own opinion in a way to avoid disparaging others, because actually you only posted to create conflict (=trolling). After all, you haven't exactly offered an opinion of your own, you've just disagreed. What a negative way to behave.

If you can't see the language you used in your initial reply to me was inappropriate, then I pity you. You must lead a very troubled life, full of conflict because of your inability to express your opinions in a manner that is respectful to those around you.

If the mods on this board wish to do an effective job, they should ban anyone who trolls in this manner to create conflict. It does not engender a positive atmosphere.

Serendipidy

To be honest Ikon and Karibspice I dont see trolling i see different cultures expressing themselves in diff ways - Im guessing Ikon ya english and im guessing Karib is Bajan.

Bajan's dont dress up they arguments or play political correctness they just keep it raw(or real as its said) which is sometimes inflammatory for us brits to take as we see it as rude and calculated and personal and not part of the way we communicate

My apologies if i got any of my assumptions wrong re culture but i dont see Karib Spice being personal just raw and very bajan and Ikon doing the english politness thing lol

However what i will say is this is the healthiest debate on the board in a while and you both have put forward ya ideas positively shame to leave it by taking offence and getting personal from a misunderstanding of styles

There are people who troll on here but I dont see that in this case - am welcome to being corrected tho if others see something i dont

Ikon

I think that's fair enough, and I won't take offence at anything.

Perhaps it is a British thing to choose more gentile language, it's just the way I prefer to express myself, and I find it much easier to engage in debate if the other party isn't bandying words around that might create conflict. I just think you end up (as in this case) discussing what's ridiculous or whatever, instead of actually having a debate on the issues. Clearly Karibspice and I have different opinions about immigration & development, and I'd have found it more valuable to debate those opinions. I just think it's completely impossible to do that if the other party attacks an opinion, as opposed to presenting their own. All you can do is defend your own, and getting defensive isn't often productive. Like you say, it may just be different sensibilities.

I just won't bother to engage with those on here who prefer to take that kind of route tbh, as I say I'd prefer to debate the real issues instead of throwing language in that creates meaningless squabbles.

pgtips

Good observation and one I was going to pick up on.

pgtips

Ikon, the problem is you are way too sensitive. Just because someone says "boo" you do not need to wet yourself and scream "troll", which in this instance was totally inappropriate. You were trying to get someone banned because they had a different opinion from yours. Why don't we bring back the whip. That was not cool
This discussion has bought up some real issues which is not just affecting Barbados, but lots of parts of the Caribbean as land prices escalate way out of the reach of locals. I am not an economist, but I do realise that valid points have been raised here. You must realise that living in the Caribbean requires a certain humour and an ability to discuss things without getting stressed. Just be Irie

Serendipidy

PGtips - why throw around more insensitive comments when there is already some peace being agreed??? - in my opinon how can any body be "too" anything!!! they are what they are and are born to be. You are using ur own yardstick to decide who matches and who is "too" much of something. If I was to follow your lead i would say that you are "way too insensitive which really aint cool" but I wont cos its negative and as far as im concerned everyone is different and communication is about finding the level of others not just bandying around statements that will piss them off cos ya can!!! Its much more difficult to swallow ya own high handed opinon and try to find a route for ya point but no lets take the easy route and just tell everyone else that if they aint wat you rate as appropriate that they aint cool

neal brown

This one get to hot fa me boozie i gine stan pun de side line,cant referee this one bo.By the way intresting argument getting more hits than YouTube when Obama was running for president ha,ha.