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Costa Esuri Golf Course

Costa Esuri Golf Course

Old May 16th 2019, 2:11 pm
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Default Costa Esuri Golf Course

Just been told the golf course will be closing this Friday. Anyone else heard this?
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Old May 16th 2019, 3:35 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Statrting to think this might be "chinese whispers". a) because no-one else has heard same and b) there is a competition on at the weekend.
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Old May 16th 2019, 4:17 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Originally Posted by Luz liver View Post
Statrting to think this might be "chinese whispers". a) because no-one else has heard same and b) there is a competition on at the weekend.
I just spoke to someone who has just taken out an 8 month membership, and he was told the course was closing tomorrow but they said the comp. would go ahead Sunday. Seemingly it is the usual, who picks up the tab for the unpaid water bill. I am not a member so just passing on what I heard, let us hope it is just rumours.

Derek
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Old May 16th 2019, 4:58 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Now hearing the course is closing but the clubhouse will remain open.
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Old May 16th 2019, 5:59 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Originally Posted by Margaret and Derek View Post
I just spoke to someone who has just taken out an 8 month membership, and he was told the course was closing tomorrow but they said the comp. would go ahead Sunday. Seemingly it is the usual, who picks up the tab for the unpaid water bill. I am not a member so just passing on what I heard, let us hope it is just rumours.

Derek
Im afraid that this is more than a rumour / chinese whisper.

What a mess...

Jon
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Old May 17th 2019, 6:56 am
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Costa Esuri Golf Club

Dear Members and Vistors,

It is with much regret that I have some bad news to pass onto you about our golf club.

On Wednesday afternoon Javier called me, without notice, to a meeting and informed me that the golf course will close on Friday afternoon this week. Yes, that's 18th May 2019.

The reason he has given me is that the new owners are not willing to pay the outstanding water bill of approximately €70,000. There is also an amount of about €2.8M owed to Ayamonte Council, but we do not, as yet, know exactly who will be paying this.

Most of us were lead to believe that the sale to the new owners had already gone ahead, but this latest development castes some doubt on this.

Tomorrow, the Friday Roll Up will start at 10.00 am and I hope as many of you as possible can make it. The last tee for the day will be issued at 3.00 pm with the gates closing at 7.00 pm as usual.

The home leg of the club match vs Quinta do Vale on Sunday 20th May will definitely be played and I have been informed that the course will be unofficially open during that time.

I have also been told that the restaurant and bar and the golf shop will remain open for the foreseeable future.

I'm sure you will all have many questions that you want answering about why, who and what happens next. I certainly have. Javier has called another meeting for Monday 20th May @ 7.30 at the club house. This will be an open meeting for anyone to attend and Javier has said he will try and answer questions as best as he is able to. In order that this meeting doesn't become a free for all with everyone asking the same questions and us getting bogged down with confusing answers, I am asking that you please reply to myself (directly) or to Kim Turner, by replying to this email, with any question or concern that you wish to be raised at the meeting. I will then present them in an orderly list and we can concentrate on getting a clearer picture of the future of Costa Esuri Golf Club. There will also be an opportunity to raise further issues if needed.

I suggest that any one who stores any golf equipment at the club arranges for this to be removed as soon as poosible, just in case access to it becomes difficult. Again, we will know more after Monday.

I'm sorry that I'm not able to give you any more information at this time, but you now know as much as I do. Hopefully, Monday's meeting will clarify the situation, although it's not possible to predict what the future will be for our club. Only that we have survived this before and I'm sure the spirit and character of Costa Esuri will remain as strong as ever and will help carry us forward to sometime in the not too distant future.

Your Captain,

Harry Young
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Old May 17th 2019, 3:44 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Just a few thoughts. In Spain the debts connected to a property stay with the property. Anyone buying a property with debt must clear the debt or take it over. Debts such as IBI (to the town hall) cannot be legally written off or even discounted. When I bought my apartment in 2014 I had to pay Banco Popular (mortgage) Tributaria (IBI & TASA) and some community and intercommunity fees. These payments were by bankers drafts and had to be seen and approved by the notary before the sale could go through. I also paid the outstanding EUC fees.

The water bill payment (above) is not optional. Just ask the owners of Hoyo 19. You don't pay you don't get re-connected.

Someone has their pants on fire!
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Old May 17th 2019, 4:37 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Originally Posted by Luz liver View Post
Just a few thoughts. In Spain the debts connected to a property stay with the property. Anyone buying a property with debt must clear the debt or take it over. Debts such as IBI (to the town hall) cannot be legally written off or even discounted. When I bought my apartment in 2014 I had to pay Banco Popular (mortgage) Tributaria (IBI & TASA) and some community and intercommunity fees. These payments were by bankers drafts and had to be seen and approved by the notary before the sale could go through. I also paid the outstanding EUC fees.

The water bill payment (above) is not optional. Just ask the owners of Hoyo 19. You don't pay you don't get re-connected.

Someone has their pants on fire!
I must agree that it would be impossible to get a debt for that magnitude for water without being cut off before it reached that but are we talking about one and the same as a domestic supply? You need to ask how this huge bill has happened. Is it something different? perhaps extraction from a borehole or the river? These also come at a cost it is not free water. Initially the watering was to come from recycled grey water from the residents. With no hotel and shopping mall. Nowhere near the number of villas perhaps there is not enough grey water. Just a thought.
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Old May 18th 2019, 10:12 am
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Originally Posted by olivia View Post
I must agree that it would be impossible to get a debt for that magnitude for water without being cut off before it reached that but are we talking about one and the same as a domestic supply? You need to ask how this huge bill has happened. Is it something different? perhaps extraction from a borehole or the river? These also come at a cost it is not free water. Initially the watering was to come from recycled grey water from the residents. With no hotel and shopping mall. Nowhere near the number of villas perhaps there is not enough grey water. Just a thought.

interesting statistics
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Old May 19th 2019, 12:47 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Originally Posted by Luz liver View Post
Just a few thoughts. In Spain the debts connected to a property stay with the property. Anyone buying a property with debt must clear the debt or take it over. Debts such as IBI (to the town hall) cannot be legally written off or even discounted. When I bought my apartment in 2014 I had to pay Banco Popular (mortgage) Tributaria (IBI & TASA) and some community and intercommunity fees. These payments were by bankers drafts and had to be seen and approved by the notary before the sale could go through. I also paid the outstanding EUC fees.

The water bill payment (above) is not optional. Just ask the owners of Hoyo 19. You don't pay you don't get re-connected.

Someone has their pants on fire!
In response to the first point of this post ........"In Spain the debts connected to a property stay with the property. Anyone buying a property with debt must clear the debt or take it over."
I provide the following info.........https://www.citizensadvice.org.es/expats-duped-into-paying-utitlity-debts/
That is a link that states that a utility bill is the responsibility of the tenant, not the owner of the building.
This is stated again on the website of Endesa [electric] ............https://www.endesaclientes.com/blog/...z-unpaid-bills ....this also states that the owner of a building is NOT responsible for a tenants' utility bills.
Yes, Giahsa withhold water supply from any future tenants or the owner of the building, but that is an illegal action on their part, and they know it too. But they are trying to frighten the owners into paying an outstanding water bill no matter who's responsibility it is, Giahsa will go for the fixed target [the building owner] and not a disappearing target [the tenant]
In some circumstances, an owner of a building cannot wait to take the water company to court to have their illegal withholding of water overturned, so more often than not, they pay the previous tenants' water bills.
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Old May 20th 2019, 10:00 am
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Originally Posted by neil77 View Post
In response to the first point of this post ........"In Spain the debts connected to a property stay with the property. Anyone buying a property with debt must clear the debt or take it over."
I provide the following info.........https://www.citizensadvice.org.es/expats-duped-into-paying-utitlity-debts/
That is a link that states that a utility bill is the responsibility of the tenant, not the owner of the building.
This is stated again on the website of Endesa [electric] ............https://www.endesaclientes.com/blog/...z-unpaid-bills ....this also states that the owner of a building is NOT responsible for a tenants' utility bills.
Yes, Giahsa withhold water supply from any future tenants or the owner of the building, but that is an illegal action on their part, and they know it too. But they are trying to frighten the owners into paying an outstanding water bill no matter who's responsibility it is, Giahsa will go for the fixed target [the building owner] and not a disappearing target [the tenant]
In some circumstances, an owner of a building cannot wait to take the water company to court to have their illegal withholding of water overturned, so more often than not, they pay the previous tenants' water bills.
Hi Neil77 I'm curious.

I think there are 2 scenarios here the 'hoyo19' one and also a more general one, i.e...
What about a BUYER of a place, with outstanding utility bill (or any bill) from the previous owner. I think that is passed on. So it is the primary responsibility of a lawyer to locate and identify any debts, before signing on the dotted line. Is that true? In this case I would either pull out or reduce the buy-price by the debt, or have the previous owner clear them, with legal proof, before signing

In a tenant situation (i.e the hoyo19 situation) utility bills should not be passed onto the owner or in this case the community.. Well if I read you correctly, they can try but the community doesn't have to pay. Also though they cant legally cut the hoyo19 building off, who cares?... It's just (sadly) an empty shell right now, its not being used to my knowledge.

The most important point is that the bill is not the responsibility of the community that owns h19. I remember a thread on this and this was a very contentious and emotional time. I don't want to open a 'can of worms here', just curious as to whether the community is liable. I don't think so based on your post. This should be a relief for them - especially after the very sad loss of 19H for us all.... but in particular for the community that tried to open up a wonderful new social space for CE. It would certainly be a 'kick in the teeth' if it cost them money now, or some interminable pure hassle of a Spanish legal process!

Jon

Last edited by Jon-Bxl; May 20th 2019 at 11:41 am.
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Old May 20th 2019, 2:20 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Hi Jon, you are right, there are different scenarios, purchasing a domestic home is different to purchasing or leasing a commercial property.
I was only quoting the original law as I found it, on the internet with the statement from Endesa, but also from taking legal advice and then also requesting the advice from Spanish Citizens Advice Bureau. All state very clearly, that in the case of a commercial property that is leased out, the tenant who uses the utilities and whose name would be on the contract of supply for the utility is solely responsible for the debt for those utilities, and not the owner of the building renting it out. Im guessing it would be up to the potential tenant to do a complete 'due diligence' investigation as to any debts associated. It cannot be that owners of commercial buildings/landlords are ultimately responsible for their tenants' utility bills otherwise tenants would get wise to that, do a flit and the poor landlord would be paying out much more than he took in! It is a grey area here in Spain though, and the water supply company just want their payments, no matter who pay it, and they are quite devious in not allowing a future tenant or the landlord to have further supply of water until someone settles their bills, but having the monopoly, they do just that. But, that is illegal, so the poor landlord has then to take the water supplier to court, which takes a long time, in order to get his/her water supply back, or, pay the outstanding bill. It is a frightening scenario, but a real one here.
The situation with Hoya 19 was quite unique, the need to have a water supply for a new tenant versus fighting Giahsa for the water supply and the time that would have taken. It was quite a complex issue, with many peripheral factors and many differing viewpoints.
With regard to buying a commercial property, as you rightly state, the lawyers would have to do their investigations and prove any outstanding debts and yes, either reduce the purchase price or have proof that the seller has cleared them. That, especially here would be essential. So what we're being told now doesnt really ring true does it. And your reference to 'bag of salt' with info given is good advice I think. I think we will all hear many rumours and theories in the coming weeks..............
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Old May 20th 2019, 2:25 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Costa Esuri Golf Club


Hi all,
Further to my last email I was called to another meeting with Javier this morning. He informed me that he had a meeting with the Mayor earlier today and that the Mayor wanted to address the community tomorrow at 7.00 pm at the golf club. This will be an open meeting for all.

With regard to tonight's meeting Javier said that this will be for fully paid up members only and that he will only answer questions from the list that I and some of my committee have put together. This list will contain all the questions that some of you have submitted by email to myself and Kim plus those I have been given personally. Javier will not be taking any questions at the meeting, so there will be no questions and answer session after as we had hoped there would be.

I do not know fully what we will be told at tonight or tommorow's meetings, but I will of course keep you all informed as soon as possible.

Regards,


Harry Young
Captain Costa Esuri Golf Club

pp Kim Turner
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Old May 20th 2019, 2:51 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Originally Posted by MikeCol View Post
Costa Esuri Golf Club


Hi all,
Further to my last email I was called to another meeting with Javier this morning. He informed me that he had a meeting with the Mayor earlier today and that the Mayor wanted to address the community tomorrow at 7.00 pm at the golf club. This will be an open meeting for all.

With regard to tonight's meeting Javier said that this will be for fully paid up members only and that he will only answer questions from the list that I and some of my committee have put together. This list will contain all the questions that some of you have submitted by email to myself and Kim plus those I have been given personally. Javier will not be taking any questions at the meeting, so there will be no questions and answer session after as we had hoped there would be.

I do not know fully what we will be told at tonight or tommorow's meetings, but I will of course keep you all informed as soon as possible.

Regards,


Harry Young
Captain Costa Esuri Golf Club

pp Kim Turner
Thank you to all for the input and information. What I am astounded about is that the water company and the town hall allow any business to rack up debts of £70k and 2.8 million respectively - it's mind boggling !! Who actually owns the golf club and course ? It is almost beyond belief that the potential purchaser's solicitors have not flagged this up sooner. The town hall are neglectful to permit this level of debt to accrue ! They never seem to be pro-active or helpful in any way to encourage businesses on CE and, in fact, by their action (or inaction ) they have caused more worry and problems for CE.
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Old May 20th 2019, 4:21 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri Golf Course

Hello Harry

The main main questions for this evening are: How have these debts accrued when Javier appeared the Golf
Club successfully. Why did he run up these debts? The wáter should have been cut off long before it reached
these levels. What is going to happen to the Golf Club and what Will happen to the Golf Course? Is there anyone
in the offing prepared to take this on. We have been told on many occasions ( down the grapevine) that the Golf Club
and Hotel have been sold. We just don't know what to believe.
Etoman
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