Are you English or British ?
Aug 4th 2005, 2:47 am
#31
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Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 33
Re: Are you English or British ?
Originally Posted by steve99
Umm, i know your right but, In my eyes the UK isnt a country , a country cant be maid up of other country's can it ???
That would be like saying WA,NSW etc are countries within Australia wouldnt it?
Or maybe we should say Eng,Scot etc are States with the country of the United Kingdom?
Steve
That would be like saying WA,NSW etc are countries within Australia wouldnt it?
Or maybe we should say Eng,Scot etc are States with the country of the United Kingdom?
Steve
"Britain" I believe is the geographic entity, British Isles or Great Britain which I believe differs it from Brittany in France.
I'm Scottish, but say to people that I'm from the UK, but I also lived in England. I definitely identify being British, but I'm culturally Scottish. I find people here don't think Scotland is part of 'Britain' or the 'UK' both of which they think menas England.
Aug 4th 2005, 2:49 am
#32
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,487
Re: Are you English or British ?
Originally Posted by JAJ
Since 1956 the Republic of Ireland has handed out Irish passports fairly indiscriminately to anyone born in Northern Ireland (or with parents/grandparents born there) who wants one.
The so-called "Good Friday Agreement" in 1998 made no substantive difference to this. Nor did it annul the British citizenship of anyone from Northern Ireland.
Although it is perhaps tantamount to a political promise on the part of the United Kingdom government not to force the Irish minority in Northern Ireland to assert their British citizenship as the price of obtaining British social and other benefits. With a quid pro quo from the Irish that they will not regard as Irish citizens those in Northern Ireland who do not want that status, even though they may 'technically' have that status under Irish law.
As a sovereign state, the Irish are of course entitled to give citizenship/passports to anyone they please, although the immigration consequences of that will also be theirs to deal with in due course. Even since the "Good Friday Agreement" was signed in 1998, they've been forced for internal reasons to repeal the law on automatic citizenship by birth - for those born in 2005 and later, there are additional requirements - and obviously this amendment to the law affects Northern Ireland too.
Not that the UK was displeased with the Irish change to the law in 2005 as under current immigration laws, Irish citizenship offers a de-facto route to live in the UK and some people (not British citizens or permanent residents) were deliberately going to Northern Ireland to give birth (so children would have Irish citizenship and hence a de-facto right to live in Britain).
Jeremy
The so-called "Good Friday Agreement" in 1998 made no substantive difference to this. Nor did it annul the British citizenship of anyone from Northern Ireland.
Although it is perhaps tantamount to a political promise on the part of the United Kingdom government not to force the Irish minority in Northern Ireland to assert their British citizenship as the price of obtaining British social and other benefits. With a quid pro quo from the Irish that they will not regard as Irish citizens those in Northern Ireland who do not want that status, even though they may 'technically' have that status under Irish law.
As a sovereign state, the Irish are of course entitled to give citizenship/passports to anyone they please, although the immigration consequences of that will also be theirs to deal with in due course. Even since the "Good Friday Agreement" was signed in 1998, they've been forced for internal reasons to repeal the law on automatic citizenship by birth - for those born in 2005 and later, there are additional requirements - and obviously this amendment to the law affects Northern Ireland too.
Not that the UK was displeased with the Irish change to the law in 2005 as under current immigration laws, Irish citizenship offers a de-facto route to live in the UK and some people (not British citizens or permanent residents) were deliberately going to Northern Ireland to give birth (so children would have Irish citizenship and hence a de-facto right to live in Britain).
Jeremy
When I left a couple of years or so ago, there were plans to abolish that. I don't know if they ever stopped it though
ADL
Aug 4th 2005, 2:53 am
#33
Retired
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
Re: Are you English or British ?
Originally Posted by Kangablue
The UK isn't really a country indeed, it's what it say on the packet a United 'Kingdom', a unification of the Scottish and English Protestant crowns (hence the religious\political divisions in NI). The united Parliament came some time afterwards. It's a political union of sorts.
Although the King remained sovereign in what's now the Republic of Ireland until 1949.
"Britain" I believe is the geographic entity, British Isles or Great Britain which I believe differs it from Brittany in France.
.
.
Geographically speaking, 'Great Britain' and 'Northern Ireland' are separate entities, joined politically as one country. The wording on the front of a UK passport makes this obvious.
There's also the term 'British Islands' which refers collectively to the UK, Isle of Man and Channel Islands.
Jeremy
Last edited by JAJ; Aug 4th 2005 at 2:57 am.
Aug 4th 2005, 2:56 am
#34
Forum Regular
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 138
Re: Are you English or British ?
Originally Posted by JAJ
Since 1956 the Republic of Ireland has handed out Irish passports fairly indiscriminately to anyone born in Northern Ireland (or with parents/grandparents born there) who wants one.
The so-called "Good Friday Agreement" in 1998 made no substantive difference to this. Nor did it annul the British citizenship of anyone from Northern Ireland.
Although it is perhaps tantamount to a political promise on the part of the United Kingdom government not to force the Irish minority in Northern Ireland to assert their British citizenship as the price of obtaining British social and other benefits. With a quid pro quo from the Irish that they will not regard as Irish citizens those in Northern Ireland who do not want that status, even though they may 'technically' have that status under Irish law.
As a sovereign state, the Irish are of course entitled to give citizenship/passports to anyone they please, although the immigration consequences of that will also be theirs to deal with in due course. Even since the "Good Friday Agreement" was signed in 1998, they've been forced for internal reasons to repeal the law on automatic citizenship by birth - for those born in 2005 and later, there are additional requirements - and obviously this amendment to the law affects Northern Ireland too.
Not that the UK was displeased with the Irish change to the law in 2005 as under current immigration laws, Irish citizenship offers a de-facto route to live in the UK and some people (not British citizens or permanent residents) were deliberately going to Northern Ireland to give birth (so children would have Irish citizenship and hence a de-facto right to live in Britain).
Jeremy
The so-called "Good Friday Agreement" in 1998 made no substantive difference to this. Nor did it annul the British citizenship of anyone from Northern Ireland.
Although it is perhaps tantamount to a political promise on the part of the United Kingdom government not to force the Irish minority in Northern Ireland to assert their British citizenship as the price of obtaining British social and other benefits. With a quid pro quo from the Irish that they will not regard as Irish citizens those in Northern Ireland who do not want that status, even though they may 'technically' have that status under Irish law.
As a sovereign state, the Irish are of course entitled to give citizenship/passports to anyone they please, although the immigration consequences of that will also be theirs to deal with in due course. Even since the "Good Friday Agreement" was signed in 1998, they've been forced for internal reasons to repeal the law on automatic citizenship by birth - for those born in 2005 and later, there are additional requirements - and obviously this amendment to the law affects Northern Ireland too.
Not that the UK was displeased with the Irish change to the law in 2005 as under current immigration laws, Irish citizenship offers a de-facto route to live in the UK and some people (not British citizens or permanent residents) were deliberately going to Northern Ireland to give birth (so children would have Irish citizenship and hence a de-facto right to live in Britain).
Jeremy
Aug 4th 2005, 2:58 am
#35
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,487
Re: Are you English or British ?
Originally Posted by JAJ
Not quite. Irish citizenship and passports didn't appear until some time after partition in 1922. When the Irish Free State came into existence there was no immediate nationality consequence as it was a Dominion, and all the Dominions shared a common British nationality with the United Kingdom.
This was accepted by the first Irish governments. Only in the 1930s did things change. A separate Irish citizenship law was enacted in 1935, and this was somewhat restrictive in terms of handing out Irish citizenship in Northern Ireland (rather ironically). It was not until 1956 that Irish citizenship became widely available on an unconditional basis in Northern Ireland.
Again - not quite true. The Irish Free State government at the outset accepted in principle the right of Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom, and the border was settled (without changes) in an Anglo-Irish agreement of 1925.
The same agreement that released the Irish Free State from any liability for the United Kingdom's public debt and made the country debt-free.
In 1937, a different Irish government, in a new constitution, made an illegal territorial claim over Northern Ireland. This was never accepted by the international community, but was not changed until December 1999.
So the Irish government 'claimed' Northern Ireland for just under 62 of its 82 years of existence. As I understand it the current consitition contains an 'aspiration' to the idea that Northern Ireland might one day join the Republic. Rather than trying to claim Northern Ireland as Irish territory and then wondering why Northern Irish people feel insecure about their futures.
Jeremy
This was accepted by the first Irish governments. Only in the 1930s did things change. A separate Irish citizenship law was enacted in 1935, and this was somewhat restrictive in terms of handing out Irish citizenship in Northern Ireland (rather ironically). It was not until 1956 that Irish citizenship became widely available on an unconditional basis in Northern Ireland.
Again - not quite true. The Irish Free State government at the outset accepted in principle the right of Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom, and the border was settled (without changes) in an Anglo-Irish agreement of 1925.
The same agreement that released the Irish Free State from any liability for the United Kingdom's public debt and made the country debt-free.
In 1937, a different Irish government, in a new constitution, made an illegal territorial claim over Northern Ireland. This was never accepted by the international community, but was not changed until December 1999.
So the Irish government 'claimed' Northern Ireland for just under 62 of its 82 years of existence. As I understand it the current consitition contains an 'aspiration' to the idea that Northern Ireland might one day join the Republic. Rather than trying to claim Northern Ireland as Irish territory and then wondering why Northern Irish people feel insecure about their futures.
Jeremy
ADL
Aug 4th 2005, 3:01 am
#36
Retired
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
Re: Are you English or British ?
Originally Posted by mary1
So in a nutshell that means anyone now born in NI can apply for both Irish,British or both passports so they have the choice of being Irish or British or both?
You only acquire British citizenship by birth in Northern Ireland (if born in 1983 or later) if at least one parent is a British citizen or permanent resident.
And if born in 2005 or later, there is only an entitlement to Irish citizenship if at least one parent is an Irish citizen, British citizen, Irish or UK permanent resident, or legally resident in Northern Ireland (subject to exceptions and conditions) for 3 years beforehand.
There are further exceptions and conditions where diplomats are involved.
So depending on circumstances, a person born in Northern Ireland may have (or be entitled to) only Irish citizenship, only British citizenship, both citizenships, or neither citizenship.
There are also many migrants to the UK living in Northern Ireland who become naturalised British citizens (only).
Jeremy
Aug 4th 2005, 3:18 am
#37
Retired
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
Re: Are you English or British ?
Going back to the original topic, here's a story from 2 years ago:
"Don't say you're Welsh or you may not get job"
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0300b...name_page.html
It was published during the 'silly season' however.
Jeremy
"Don't say you're Welsh or you may not get job"
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0300b...name_page.html
It was published during the 'silly season' however.
Jeremy
Last edited by JAJ; Aug 4th 2005 at 3:34 am.
Aug 4th 2005, 3:25 am
#38
Y Ddraig Goch
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Body is in Brissie. Heart and soul has long flown home.
Posts: 3,722
Re: Are you English or British ?
Originally Posted by JAJ
It's easy to say one is "not pro union" without considering further the real long-term consequences of secession from the United Kingdom.
Including border and visa controls, a separate currency and customs restrictions hampering trade.
The European Union casts a smokescreen over some of these fundamental issues but that may not last.
Jeremy
Including border and visa controls, a separate currency and customs restrictions hampering trade.
The European Union casts a smokescreen over some of these fundamental issues but that may not last.
Jeremy
I've considered it - how about most of my life for a start? It's not an "easy" ( or flippant) statement. Far from it.
I was brought up by a family with quite opposite views to each other on the subject. Some of my earliest memories were of my two grandparents, my parents, and relatives - getting into slanging matches over this ( debates, to put a much finer word on it
). I'd be the first to say it does have some problems, but not to the extent which some think.I'm not going to get into a debate about this,as I personally doubt very much it will happen ( a split of the United kingdom ) even if there was a vote tomorrow. Unionists have nothing to worry about, unless the current voting system is made fair- that I can not see happening
Cheers
Aug 4th 2005, 3:40 am
#39
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Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 29
Re: Are you English or British ?
My dad started his career in journalism with the Western Mail, reporting in Wales on Welsh news.
Interesting that he got the job considering his English background. To be open and honest, his mum was Welsh, but he didn't have a Welsh accent, and probably didn't mention his welsh connection knowing him.
I think it may well matter (sadly) that placing where your'e actually from on a application could, in front of some interviewers have a detrimental effect - you get that.
Let's also remember, that like me, (English/Welsh background) and like everywhere, people do slowly mix, and with time only a few retain a hard political / social / and 'turf' position. All it takes however, is those few to stir history, and provoke sentiment in others....
Interesting that he got the job considering his English background. To be open and honest, his mum was Welsh, but he didn't have a Welsh accent, and probably didn't mention his welsh connection knowing him.
I think it may well matter (sadly) that placing where your'e actually from on a application could, in front of some interviewers have a detrimental effect - you get that.
Let's also remember, that like me, (English/Welsh background) and like everywhere, people do slowly mix, and with time only a few retain a hard political / social / and 'turf' position. All it takes however, is those few to stir history, and provoke sentiment in others....
Last edited by FXtrader; Aug 4th 2005 at 3:48 am.
Aug 4th 2005, 3:58 am
#40
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,487
Re: Are you English or British ?
Originally Posted by JAJ
It's easy to say one is "not pro union" without considering further the real long-term consequences of secession from the United Kingdom.
Including border and visa controls, a separate currency and customs restrictions hampering trade.
The European Union casts a smokescreen over some of these fundamental issues but that may not last.
Jeremy
Including border and visa controls, a separate currency and customs restrictions hampering trade.
The European Union casts a smokescreen over some of these fundamental issues but that may not last.
Jeremy
It failed, for whatever reasons and I've been told ever since by my Dad, that if it had succeeded, Scotland would have been the Saudia Arabia of Europe. Its coffers stuffed full of North Sea oil money. Instead it went on Maggies unemployed millions in England (you can tell Dads a bit of a nationalist
).Now Scotland has to be grateful for handouts from the billions that went to the UK coffers.
I'm not a raving Scottish nationalist by the way, but it sound plausible.
Aug 4th 2005, 4:07 am
#41
Retired
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
Re: Are you English or British ?
Originally Posted by A dogs life
I remember back in 1979 Scotland had a vote to seperate to a certain extent from the UK. Now the date may be wrong but it was around that time.
It failed, for whatever reasons and I've been told ever since by my Dad, that if it had succeeded, Scotland would have been the Saudia Arabia of Europe. Its coffers stuffed full of North Sea oil money. Instead it went on Maggies unemployed millions in England (you can tell Dads a bit of a nationalist ).
It failed, for whatever reasons and I've been told ever since by my Dad, that if it had succeeded, Scotland would have been the Saudia Arabia of Europe. Its coffers stuffed full of North Sea oil money. Instead it went on Maggies unemployed millions in England (you can tell Dads a bit of a nationalist
).The Assembly, as far as I know, would not have had tax raising powers, or control over resources, for that matter.
It was no more a 'separation' than the current devolved Scottish government entails 'separation' from the UK.
Jeremy
Aug 4th 2005, 4:24 am
#42
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,487
Re: Are you English or British ?
Originally Posted by JAJ
There was a vote in 1979 on creating a Scottish Assembly. It failed because it did not get the support of 40% of the Scottish electorate.
The Assembly, as far as I know, would not have had tax raising powers, or control over resources, for that matter.
It was no more a 'separation' than the current devolved Scottish government entails 'separation' from the UK.
Jeremy
The Assembly, as far as I know, would not have had tax raising powers, or control over resources, for that matter.
It was no more a 'separation' than the current devolved Scottish government entails 'separation' from the UK.
Jeremy
I think the point was it would have been the first step to separation, and Scotland would have then grasped all the North Sea oil revenue. As I say I wasn't into politics at the time, but I do still spout the theory in pubs late at night when I get English people telling me how they are supporting Scotland financially
I don't know how true it is, but it seems credible, and I've heard a few documentaries that said Margeret Thatcher blew all the North Sea oil wealth on the 3 million unemployed in the eighties(majority in England).
Aug 4th 2005, 4:35 am
#43
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Re: Are you English or British ?
Originally Posted by A dogs life
I don't know how true it is, but it seems credible, and I've heard a few documentaries that said Margeret Thatcher blew all the North Sea oil wealth on the 3 million unemployed in the eighties(majority in England).
SHETLAND’S oil wealth is founded on a pioneering piece of legislation, the Zetland County Council Act 1974, giving the council greater powers than other local authorities (except Orkney which has the Flotta oil terminal) to “plan for and accommodate the development of the oil industry�.
The result was one of the most favourable deals ever agreed to by the industry, a form of local tax in the form of “disturbance payments� which has delivered several hundred million pounds – no one seems entirely sure just how much – into a variety of trust funds that survive to this day. The council funds its many infrastructure, economic and recreational projects, including 12 swimming pools for 22,000 inhabitants, and some of the finest schools provision in Scotland, through the interest earned on the oil money.
http://www.sundayherald.com/print50189
The result was one of the most favourable deals ever agreed to by the industry, a form of local tax in the form of “disturbance payments� which has delivered several hundred million pounds – no one seems entirely sure just how much – into a variety of trust funds that survive to this day. The council funds its many infrastructure, economic and recreational projects, including 12 swimming pools for 22,000 inhabitants, and some of the finest schools provision in Scotland, through the interest earned on the oil money.
http://www.sundayherald.com/print50189
Aug 4th 2005, 6:32 am
#44
Im a woomaaan
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,978
Re: Are you English or British ?
Originally Posted by JAJ
Depends on how you define a 'country'. One fairly fundamental characteristic of a country is that it's viewed as such by other countries (which is admittedly a somewhat circular definition).
On that basis, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a 'country' while its component parts are not.
Scotland is not called a 'State' but in practice has many of the attributes of a US state, Australian state or Canadian province. England of course doesn't have a 'state' government like Scotland, but who needs that when England is about 80% of the population of the United Kingdom anyway?
Jeremy
On that basis, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a 'country' while its component parts are not.
Scotland is not called a 'State' but in practice has many of the attributes of a US state, Australian state or Canadian province. England of course doesn't have a 'state' government like Scotland, but who needs that when England is about 80% of the population of the United Kingdom anyway?
Jeremy
My English hubby often tells me Scotland is the biggest county in England and that I`m not too bad considering Im from a subjugated race (for which he gets a good battering!!) Seriously though, why shouldn`t the English be proud to say they are English -just like most Scots or Welsh will say they are Scots or Welsh first and proud of it!I know for a fact that if England is for example playing in the world cup us "subjugated" countries will cheer on the other team and still witter on about Bannockburn (some jokingly , some not). After Scotland beat the Welsh at the rugby (a lot of years ago) I was ribbing a Welsh supporter who turned round and said he didn`t mind who beat them so long as it wasn`t the English!!
I guess what I`m saying is that if you have a sense of having been invaded then it pulls you all together and makes you want to confirm your national identity and shout about it. I think Englands identity has been watered down - you should be proud to be English and you should be allowed to have a ST Georges flag stuck outside your house if you want to!!
Aug 4th 2005, 6:41 am
#45
Loving it in Bundy
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Bundaberg, Australia
Posts: 1,775
Re: Are you English or British ?
I'm Welsh first and British second. My parents are both Welsh as are my grandparents. My great and great-great grandparents were also Welsh, before then who knows, we haven't looked that far back yet.
Sarah
Sarah