Would you advise a migrant family to move from London to Sydney/Melbourne?
Mar 16th 2015, 9:30 am
#16
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,148
Re: Would you advise a migrant family to move from London to Sydney/Melbourne?
Hi all, I appreciate your advice, even brutal and honest one. But this is a genuine query. I am not interested in opening a heated debate for its own sake.
Perhaps I was naïve to think Australia is inherently easier than England. But pls understand that here, the media, and my own circles, keep saying how Britain is still a class-ridden society, private schools matter, etc. As a columnist in the Guardian said lately:
“The answer is that social mobility remained at its slow pre-industrial pace. Status persists as strongly in the Cameron meritocracy as in pre-industrial England. Lineage is destiny. At birth, most of your social outcome is predictable from your family history.
An illustration of the power of lineage even in modern England comes even from the first names children receive at birth. Naming your daughter Jade means she has one hundredth the chance of attending Oxford as a girl whose parents chose for her Eleanor. Similarly for Bradley versus Peter.”
Social mobility barely exists. So don’t expect it to solve inequality | Gregory Clark | Comment is free | The Guardian
That is why I wondered Australia can offer better opportunities for migrants, ‘outsiders’. I might be naïve, but that does not mean it is not worth asking.
Thanks,
Perhaps I was naïve to think Australia is inherently easier than England. But pls understand that here, the media, and my own circles, keep saying how Britain is still a class-ridden society, private schools matter, etc. As a columnist in the Guardian said lately:
“The answer is that social mobility remained at its slow pre-industrial pace. Status persists as strongly in the Cameron meritocracy as in pre-industrial England. Lineage is destiny. At birth, most of your social outcome is predictable from your family history.
An illustration of the power of lineage even in modern England comes even from the first names children receive at birth. Naming your daughter Jade means she has one hundredth the chance of attending Oxford as a girl whose parents chose for her Eleanor. Similarly for Bradley versus Peter.”
Social mobility barely exists. So don’t expect it to solve inequality | Gregory Clark | Comment is free | The Guardian
That is why I wondered Australia can offer better opportunities for migrants, ‘outsiders’. I might be naïve, but that does not mean it is not worth asking.
Thanks,
Mar 16th 2015, 9:39 am
#17
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,375
Re: Would you advise a migrant family to move from London to Sydney/Melbourne?
“The answer is that social mobility remained at its slow pre-industrial pace. Status persists as strongly in the Cameron meritocracy as in pre-industrial England. Lineage is destiny. At birth, most of your social outcome is predictable from your family history.
An illustration of the power of lineage even in modern England comes even from the first names children receive at birth. Naming your daughter Jade means she has one hundredth the chance of attending Oxford as a girl whose parents chose for her Eleanor. Similarly for Bradley versus Peter.”
Social mobility barely exists. So don’t expect it to solve inequality | Gregory Clark | Comment is free | The Guardian
Thanks,
An illustration of the power of lineage even in modern England comes even from the first names children receive at birth. Naming your daughter Jade means she has one hundredth the chance of attending Oxford as a girl whose parents chose for her Eleanor. Similarly for Bradley versus Peter.”
Social mobility barely exists. So don’t expect it to solve inequality | Gregory Clark | Comment is free | The Guardian
Thanks,
Ummm I just keep thinking a country with names like Jaxzon, Brokk, Dwayne, Dazza, Charnae, Carleene, may possibly be not exactly what you are looking for
Mar 16th 2015, 11:24 am
#18
Home and Happy
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: Keep true friends and puppets close, trust no-one else...
Posts: 93,814
Mar 16th 2015, 11:29 am
#19
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 5,461
Re: Would you advise a migrant family to move from London to Sydney/Melbourne?
Mar 16th 2015, 11:48 am
#20
Concierge
Joined: Jan 2013
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 21,139
Re: Would you advise a migrant family to move from London to Sydney/Melbourne?
Mar 16th 2015, 11:50 am
#21
Still alive
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,994
Re: Would you advise a migrant family to move from London to Sydney/Melbourne?
I'm a Dozza and I did go out a couple of times with a Daz. Although he was English so I guess that doesn't count.
Mar 16th 2015, 5:13 pm
#24
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Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Canberra
Posts: 8,378
Re: Would you advise a migrant family to move from London to Sydney/Melbourne?
You believe the Grauniad? Oh dear. Move immediately!
Mar 16th 2015, 8:47 pm
#25
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: Would you advise a migrant family to move from London to Sydney/Melbourne?
Hi all, I appreciate your advice, even brutal and honest one. But this is a genuine query. I am not interested in opening a heated debate for its own sake.
Perhaps I was naïve to think Australia is inherently easier than England. But pls understand that here, the media, and my own circles, keep saying how Britain is still a class-ridden society, private schools matter, etc. As a columnist in the Guardian said lately:
“The answer is that social mobility remained at its slow pre-industrial pace. Status persists as strongly in the Cameron meritocracy as in pre-industrial England. Lineage is destiny. At birth, most of your social outcome is predictable from your family history.
An illustration of the power of lineage even in modern England comes even from the first names children receive at birth. Naming your daughter Jade means she has one hundredth the chance of attending Oxford as a girl whose parents chose for her Eleanor. Similarly for Bradley versus Peter.”
Social mobility barely exists. So don’t expect it to solve inequality | Gregory Clark | Comment is free | The Guardian
That is why I wondered Australia can offer better opportunities for migrants, ‘outsiders’. I might be naïve, but that does not mean it is not worth asking.
Thanks,
Perhaps I was naïve to think Australia is inherently easier than England. But pls understand that here, the media, and my own circles, keep saying how Britain is still a class-ridden society, private schools matter, etc. As a columnist in the Guardian said lately:
“The answer is that social mobility remained at its slow pre-industrial pace. Status persists as strongly in the Cameron meritocracy as in pre-industrial England. Lineage is destiny. At birth, most of your social outcome is predictable from your family history.
An illustration of the power of lineage even in modern England comes even from the first names children receive at birth. Naming your daughter Jade means she has one hundredth the chance of attending Oxford as a girl whose parents chose for her Eleanor. Similarly for Bradley versus Peter.”
Social mobility barely exists. So don’t expect it to solve inequality | Gregory Clark | Comment is free | The Guardian
That is why I wondered Australia can offer better opportunities for migrants, ‘outsiders’. I might be naïve, but that does not mean it is not worth asking.
Thanks,
There are many foreigners in the UK who have made a success for themselves. Perhaps you should start by making a list of them and research how they did it. Start with Kylie Minogue. A bogan from Melbourne who by passed the Aussie slog and went straight for the British jugular.
Mar 16th 2015, 9:39 pm
#26
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,526
Re: Would you advise a migrant family to move from London to Sydney/Melbourne?
It's quite a complex issue this one IMO, tis a brave soul that takes that utters this opinion on a UK board. I have often said that the best thing I left behind in the UK was the Class consciousness system... I still stand by that view.
Jad did make a good point re the names though and if anything if there are people that feel they are moving away from the masses there does seem to be the reverse pressure on some to dumb down somewhat. I guess my view is enhanced somewhat by living in amongst what is probably the strongest left wing intelligentsia area in the country. So it's a bit difficult to say what the rest of the country is like after all of my decades in this locale.
You dont get doctors/lawyers/teachers/business leaders calling you "Mate" in the UK as a normal everyday greeting though... eh
?
So to the OP, The race issue re London v Melbourne or Sydney will be an insignificant factor... Whereas the Class issue could involve poltical leanings to some degree. Melbournes Inner North is very different to Sydney's North shore I would imagine on this issue... Although both are good locations..... A bit like Islington/Camden/Notting Hill v Christchurch or Surrey. I'm guessing the UK lefties would be far more class conscious than their Aus counterparts though.
Jad did make a good point re the names though and if anything if there are people that feel they are moving away from the masses there does seem to be the reverse pressure on some to dumb down somewhat. I guess my view is enhanced somewhat by living in amongst what is probably the strongest left wing intelligentsia area in the country. So it's a bit difficult to say what the rest of the country is like after all of my decades in this locale.
You dont get doctors/lawyers/teachers/business leaders calling you "Mate" in the UK as a normal everyday greeting though... eh
?So to the OP, The race issue re London v Melbourne or Sydney will be an insignificant factor... Whereas the Class issue could involve poltical leanings to some degree. Melbournes Inner North is very different to Sydney's North shore I would imagine on this issue... Although both are good locations..... A bit like Islington/Camden/Notting Hill v Christchurch or Surrey. I'm guessing the UK lefties would be far more class conscious than their Aus counterparts though.
Last edited by ozzieeagle; Mar 16th 2015 at 9:42 pm.
Mar 16th 2015, 10:44 pm
#28
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: Would you advise a migrant family to move from London to Sydney/Melbourne?
Forget the doctors and lawyers. How about some royalty
Mar 17th 2015, 7:57 am
#29
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Joined: Jul 2008
Location: My happy place
Posts: 3,043
Re: Would you advise a migrant family to move from London to Sydney/Melbourne?
It's quite a complex issue this one IMO, tis a brave soul that takes that utters this opinion on a UK board. I have often said that the best thing I left behind in the UK was the Class consciousness system... I still stand by that view.
Jad did make a good point re the names though and if anything if there are people that feel they are moving away from the masses there does seem to be the reverse pressure on some to dumb down somewhat. I guess my view is enhanced somewhat by living in amongst what is probably the strongest left wing intelligentsia area in the country. So it's a bit difficult to say what the rest of the country is like after all of my decades in this locale.
You dont get doctors/lawyers/teachers/business leaders calling you "Mate" in the UK as a normal everyday greeting though... eh ?
So to the OP, The race issue re London v Melbourne or Sydney will be an insignificant factor... Whereas the Class issue could involve poltical leanings to some degree. Melbournes Inner North is very different to Sydney's North shore I would imagine on this issue... Although both are good locations..... A bit like Islington/Camden/Notting Hill v Christchurch or Surrey. I'm guessing the UK lefties would be far more class conscious than their Aus counterparts though.
Jad did make a good point re the names though and if anything if there are people that feel they are moving away from the masses there does seem to be the reverse pressure on some to dumb down somewhat. I guess my view is enhanced somewhat by living in amongst what is probably the strongest left wing intelligentsia area in the country. So it's a bit difficult to say what the rest of the country is like after all of my decades in this locale.
You dont get doctors/lawyers/teachers/business leaders calling you "Mate" in the UK as a normal everyday greeting though... eh
?So to the OP, The race issue re London v Melbourne or Sydney will be an insignificant factor... Whereas the Class issue could involve poltical leanings to some degree. Melbournes Inner North is very different to Sydney's North shore I would imagine on this issue... Although both are good locations..... A bit like Islington/Camden/Notting Hill v Christchurch or Surrey. I'm guessing the UK lefties would be far more class conscious than their Aus counterparts though.
Regarding the OP's missive.
They want to leave behind a country that took them in from whatever place they came from ( they seem strangely quiet on that front) as they fear a 'class asked society will somehow ruin the kids they are bringing up on £100k. Yet at the same time they want to move to a country where they think they will have a better chance of moving their kids to the 'top of society'.
How can you want to leave one situation and actively pursue the same in another? By elevating your kids to the 'top of society' you are acknowledging those levels of society exist. Surely in this classless utopia that you seek, everyone should be at the same level, just doing different jobs?
I don't think the Op's issue is was class at at all, in fact I think they crave a society based on class but just want an easier ladder to climb.
Last edited by Tr1boy; Mar 17th 2015 at 7:59 am.
Mar 20th 2015, 10:47 pm
#30
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Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Hill overlooking the SE Melbourne suburbs
Posts: 16,622
Re: Would you advise a migrant family to move from London to Sydney/Melbourne?
if you can earn big bucks and transfer that potential to Melbourne, it can be a very nice life indeed. I actually think it can work because Londoners get big cities and find Melbourne easier as a result (it's simply not as big, the CBD and surrounds are a lot smaller) or often are already economically established - look at BuzzieB and his success. If you come from a UK provincial town then Melbourne or any Australian city can be a bit of a shock.
It's harder and harder though.
I was looking out of my office window the other day and yet again it hit me - set the life up the right way and it will work well and Melbourne can be one of the nicest places to be. Have a big gap somewhere and life can feel rather less special. We've been here over 10 years so all the opportunities have opened up - all the little things you do over summer, or winter etc fall into place. You know where to go, and when, and who to do it with.
When you have a proper job, with prospects, and a nice home on acreage or in the inner burbs with access to the arts, parks, beaches, sport and work and leisure, access to ski fields, walking locations, and vineyards - and have a sense of belonging and community, then Melbourne is great. Rush hour - simply avoid it (I refuse to drive in rushhour from home to work) - or learn the rat-runs - if they exist for your route. I surprised myself a few years by discovering one run from one inner city location to another which takes minutes and solves a lot of issues - in rush hour. It gets me from my work to my play with little hassle or stress.
Live in an outer burb, marginalised from a professional job with good prospects, in what Bernald Salt (look him up!) calls the 'naff' places, or caught up in rushhour traffic then it can all seem a lot worse.
It's harder and harder though.
I was looking out of my office window the other day and yet again it hit me - set the life up the right way and it will work well and Melbourne can be one of the nicest places to be. Have a big gap somewhere and life can feel rather less special. We've been here over 10 years so all the opportunities have opened up - all the little things you do over summer, or winter etc fall into place. You know where to go, and when, and who to do it with.
When you have a proper job, with prospects, and a nice home on acreage or in the inner burbs with access to the arts, parks, beaches, sport and work and leisure, access to ski fields, walking locations, and vineyards - and have a sense of belonging and community, then Melbourne is great. Rush hour - simply avoid it (I refuse to drive in rushhour from home to work) - or learn the rat-runs - if they exist for your route. I surprised myself a few years by discovering one run from one inner city location to another which takes minutes and solves a lot of issues - in rush hour. It gets me from my work to my play with little hassle or stress.
Live in an outer burb, marginalised from a professional job with good prospects, in what Bernald Salt (look him up!) calls the 'naff' places, or caught up in rushhour traffic then it can all seem a lot worse.