pommie bastard

Never realy understood the tax system in Australia but after reading this I can now see that its a case of set out to live on welfare and those who give up half their wages in tax can work longer and harder to keep you .
I have always thought that Australia has half the population working for the goverment , one quarter in private industry and the last quarter living off hand outs maybe I was right?



Romantics or parasites?

Your articles on "downshifters" (11/1) overlook two important factors in this emerging trend: income tax rates and the social security system.

As bracket creep pushes average wage earners into higher tax margins, the financial benefits of working harder, longer or smarter no longer reflect the extra effort put in. Hence the desire of downshifters to work less for less pay.

However, while working less for less pay (or even not working at all), downshifters are no longer saving and investing as much (or anything at all) for their retirement - safe in the knowledge that their reduced financial circumstances will increase their eligibility for pensions and other benefits. In the meantime, publicly funded health care, education and other benefits make life more comfortable for the new poor-by-choice.

Who pays for all this? Those who work harder, longer and smarter, pay their taxes, and save and invest for a comfortable retirement.

To paraphrase Karl Marx, downshifters and those who romanticise their decision to drop out and have someone else pay for their choice of lifestyle remember well "to each according to his needs" - but have conveniently forgotten "from each according to his abilities".
Stephen Scicluna, Ascot Vale

scoobydooathome

When you return to the land of VERY plenty i.e. the U.K. you will see that people like your good self will be keeping all the scalywags here as well ...

Welcome to the land of stealth taxes i.e. the U.K.

typical rates on your house $3580.00 pa, thats of course if you can afford to buy a house, in our area a dog box 3 bed semi is going for £235.000, $600.000 plus dollars oz, welcome to the land of the 50 year morgage, petrol $2.24 per ltr, etc ...

yes, welcome to the land of plenty, it's the same here i'm afraid,

Best of Luck.

Bernard

Scoobdooathome

I think you need to wait until you've lived & worked in Aus for a couple of years before commenting.
Higher-rate tax kicks in at a relatively low level over here and salaries are relatively very low. The 'tax take' from those on modest incomes is proportionately higher than in the UK - a fact not compensated for by cheaper petrol, I'm afraid.

As a school teacher quite well up the pay scale I find that I can't even afford to take an annual holiday. I'm by no means anti-Aus, but economically and in career terms I simply cannot justify living here any longer, much as I like the weather and good access to sports.

As to house prices - well, I know there are many parts of the UK where it is possible to buy a good 4-bed detached house for £150k. I know that the South East is very over-priced (and prices will likely fall back this year...) but I don't intend to move to the SE so that's not an issue for me. Can't understand your comment about 50-year mortgages - I would image they are extremely rare in the UK; 25 years in the norm for mortgages.

In most of the nicer parts of Aus cities you are looking at paying £100k+ for a house. When your take-home pay is only around £1k equiv. per month that makes housing here pretty expensive! Food is a similar price (fruit,veg a bit cheaper) but many consumer goods (TV, appliances) are more expensive - hence you get hit in the wallet.

Put it this way - when I move back to the UK I will be able to afford a nice house and have enough money left over each month to be able to afford a 4-week holday in Aus (or anywhere else) every year. Then I'll be able to have a full month each year to enjoy Aus without suffering the lousy pay and conditions.

fishyben

These are quite a new idea over here, but i have alot of friends that are first time buyers and 50 year mortgaes seems to be one of the only ways to get on the property ladder.

I don't live there YET, but i aggree, there seems to be the thought in alot of migants heads before they get out there you will be better off, but when your there you are erning $AUS not £GBP so it's unfair to compare prices. My mother and step father have been out the for 6 years now and i'v spent enough time out there to see it the good and ofter bad point.

this is true, a freind of mine brought a 4 bed in blackpool for £45,000. i live on the south coast (near southampton) and my 3 bed semi (ex-council) is valued at £162,000 and they are selling for that all over my area.
this is good for us as 50% of that is ours when we sell.

thing is theres just no more room in the uk anymore, 60+million and growing. thats one of the many reasons me & the wife want to take our 4 month old and get the hell out before the uk bursts at the seams...

ben...

scoobydooathome

Hi Bernard,

I and many others on the forum appreciate the various views of yourself and others, you have made some good points in relation to the cost of living in oz, I would agree that it is proportional to the lower salaries and must sting, but here to in the U.K. the cost of living is very high and this too, is proportionate to our salaries, the big difference for many is that we will gain from the silly property prices here in the U.K. and take this to OZ. I bought my house for £38.500, millions of years ago and it's now £1/4 m plus

The U.K. is very crowded and it seems over populated in some areas, it would be nice to have a change of lifestyle and hot weather,

Yes there are 50, 40, 30, year mortgages yuk ...

best of luck,

cheers.

pommie bastard

Get real have alreadly seen a house in the midlands that would do us for 90k in pounds which we could buy out right as for the rest of your post its total bollocks , apart from the price of petrol which is taken care of in the form of a smaller car and less miles to travel to work .
We both earn about half of the wages we earned in the UK so will you , take your rose tinted glasses off.

Bernard

I agree that if you can come to Aus with £100k+ from a UK house sale then you will have a real head start, no doubt about it.

What I'd like to see on this forum is more posts from ex-UK people who have been here for 2 or more years. Its very exciting when you first get here and are building a new life etc., but reality kicks in after 18 months or so.

The reason I post here is that I've met a fair number of ex-UK people who have come here and, after a couple of years, are unhappy. The most common comment is that they wish they'd kept a property back in the UK so that could return more easily.

I'm full of admiration for people who do chose to emigrate, its a big and ambitious step. I feel very sad when I see posts saying things like, 'there's no way I'd bring children up in the UK', or 'the UK has totally gone to the dogs'. What are they expecting to find here? Aus has many of the same problems, often in greater measure.
All I would say is don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail - the UK is still world class in many respects. Unfortunately the British media are incredibly negative (I read the online news from the UK press and they never seem to print any good news!).

Those who have the most positive view of Aus are invariably writing from the UK and have not lived/worked here. Those who are living here and post anything negative are dismissed as 'whingers'. I have no axe to grind, I have some great mates here and generally I enjoy life. I just try to tell it like it is, and, frankly, for a lot of folks it ain't that great, and I think that needs to be said.

As regards the cost of living issue - well, I'm fortunate that my sister has exactly the same job as me back in the UK. We can compare costs $/£ and also general experiences. For our occupation (primary teaching) the UK wins hands down on standard of living, although I agree that for some occupations that may not be the case.

Herman

Well said. I'm in the same boat as you. No real axe to grind, have good friends here and have had a great couple of years here.
People from the UK who think cost of living is cheaper here are wrong. Taxes are probably similar or higher. In respect of salaries in my profession you swap the pound sign for a dollar sign and then add 30%, so you are earning just under 50% of your UK salary. Petrol is half the cost so in real terms the same, stamp duty paid on used car purchases is a shock, groceries cost the same in real terms, beer costs a hell of a lot more in real terms, bills are similar in real terms, clothes cost UK prices so about double in real terms, electirical good and other 'global' branded products cost similar to the UK so again about double in real terms. Could go on but you and I are probably bored now - the fact is that many day to day items cost a similar amount to in the UK but you earn half as much here so in real terms the cost to you is double that of the UK.
People say house prices are cheaper - like you said, yes if you've got 100k quid in your pocket sure they are, but then again that'll buy you a house with no mortgage in many areas of almost any country in the world. including the UK. Houses prices compared to net income after living expenses are very very expensive here.
The mid to late twenty year old Australians I work with here in Sydney can only dream about property ownership and most have a target of getting their first house before they are 35. They drive crappy old 10 year old Japanese cars and they can not afford overseas holidays. My UK peers of the same age group have 3 or 4 bed houses, cars less than 3 years old and two or even three overseas holidays a year. Materially the lifestyles of the two groups are incomparable, but they do the same job (except the Aussies work longer hours).
No I'm not whinging, thats just a statement of reality. This is not a rich country and dont expect to suddenly have wads of money spare for doing the same thing. As many people quite rightly say though, money is'nt everything, and that is doubly true over here as the best things that Australia has to offer are free.

colind

Excellent post, Herman - anyone coming to Sydney, this is pretty much right on the money. Come with your eyes open, folks, but also come with a positive attitude and enjoy it. We've been here 7 months and we sense it's the right move for us but who knows where we'll be in 5 years' time?

dotty

This is one of the most realistic posts I have ever read on here. Some very good comments and oh so true.

Its not cheap here, not at all because the wages are low.

Houses are very expensive compared to the earnings.

Holidays are just a dream for most here. Airfares for 4 to the UK just cost us $9000.00 plus a grand for taxes. Imagine families on Aussie wages affording that, sorry most see a trip here as a once in a lifetime thing aussies do before kids.

It is a great mystery where all the frequent posters go when they arrive. I do not believe they are all having such a great time at the beach that they cannot post, more likely they came down to earth with a bump.

All the social problems in the UK exist here, your kids face the same risks.

Look if you can come here with proceeds from the Uk to buy a house outright then that is a wonderful start. But you will still have to face the weekly wage drop to Aussie standards. How long will it be before you realise that the free entertainment, beach and BBQ,s really only fills a very small portion of the week, hardly mentally stimulating is it.

As for the Welfare problem here. It is Huge. I read that 80% of the population on the Sunshine Coast are dependant on all or part Welfare. Ask any business here there busiest day, Food stores, Pubs, petrol stations, Poker machine clubs, Take out food, its Thursday, the day the Taxpayer doles out to the millions who dont work.

A blue sky is very nice, however it does not wipe out the day to day realities.

pommie bastard

My son is in the UK has a 25 year mortgage on a detached home cost 112k in good area of the midlands not a ex council house , home prices are driven on location interest rates and jobs not population , I think India or China is more over populated but homes are very cheap fancy living there?
60 million does sound a lot but look at Australia out of 20 million , 90% of the population live in 6 Citys and these are the hot spots growing faster with immigration than the UK but lacking infrastructure like roads and underground power plus services and most important work.
Travel here from one city to another to work is out of the question so people get trapped in suburbia , good thing about a bigger population on a smaller Island is more opportunitys are created for employment.
Get in a car in the UK with in no time you in the country side or even Europe , drive anywhere here ands its a case of why bother the distances are too great to see a very boring landscape.
A lot of work in WA is either fly in fly out every couple of weeks or go and live in some dust bowl in the middle of nowhere , marriages breakdown far more often here because of this a great place for picking up lonely a woman.
Good Luck to you.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home ownership falling: study

15jan03

AUSTRALIANS are abandoning the great Australian dream of owning their own home in the pursuit of more immediate pleasures, new research has found.

Melbourne University property lecturer Richard Reed said the dream of home ownership had fallen off the list of priorities for many Australians, in favour of spending on material possessions.
Mr Reed said recent study group surveys of those in the under 35 age group who were financially able to buy properties showed many were choosing to rent instead.

"More people that can afford to buy are deciding now that they are just going to rent.

"In many instances a tenant may view renting as a wise investment decision, no longer seeing it as dead money," Mr Reed said.

He said people were making lifestyle decisions and choosing to rent in inner suburbs, rather than buy houses in outer areas and commute.

Describing today's householders as "free agents", Mr Reed said they were more likely to invest in commodities such as cars and spend on travel and eating out.

This trend could be attributed to a post-September 11 attitude of living for the moment, he said

Ceri

I've been in Aus for almost 6 years now, and agree with the fact that most things here cost around the same as in the Uk. Wages are generally lower here than in the UK with higher tax. I don't fall into this group, I'm getting the same as I would in the UK if not a little higher, but I am definitely getting more tax taken out of me than in the UK.

Houses- (some) people in the Uk are comparing houses in a certain/expensive area to houses in a certain areas in Australia which is unfair. "They" should compare the 300 thou pound house in the Uk to some of the other areas in the UK. I can quote 4 bedroom houses in the Uk which are next to the sea for less that 300 thou pounds.

eg.. My in-law in the UK has a four bed house next to the sea (a couple of streets away) Mumbles for those who know the area, which is a sort of Holiday area (south Wales). A Couple of years ago it was worth 70, 75 thou (uk pounds), in this boom.. it's valued at around 120, my in law told me last week on the phone that the next door neighbours house sold for this amount a month back... which is still cheaper than what some people are quoting for other areas in the UK. My friend, now he has a lovely big old house overlooking the water (crofty in Gower) four large bedrooms, huge kitchen, beam work on the ceilings, beautiful big rustic old house, and a huge garden... this house is now valued at just over 250 thou (pounds again). He paid around 100 thou for it 10 years ago plus renovating costs on top (he did a lot of work to it, knocking down interior walls etc)
So I find it slightly amusing that some people are comparing a place like say London, Midlands etc with a pokey 3 bedroom house,, where houses are more expensive anyway to a less expensive area in Aus, or even not comparing it to other areas in the UK, where I know you can buy a house for less than 300 thousand pounds which is next to the sea. House prices vary greatly in Aus, you can buy a couple of acres , 5 bedroom for around $600 thou (AU) if you go out from Brisbane inner suburbs to country towns like Caboulture etc, if you want to buy the same closer to the CBD try a few Million.

Then you got the "beach" towns.. I went up to Hervey Bay (near Frasier Island) last year for the day, lovely place and I was surprised how cheap houses were, but places like this there is not much work, it tends to be seasonal/holiday/tourist work.. hence the cheap property.

And I think like most places in the world it does take a while to get a grip, I can remember when I first got here.. it took a while for things to sink in, I'd say it took me two years there about, it was the same when I lived in Singapore too although it happened quicker there (a year maybe).

I used to live near the Gateway Bridge (Brisbane), just over a year ago, the house which I was in then was a double storey fibro (brick at the bottom/ fibro at the top deck), 3 bedroom, anyway that house at the time was $200 thou (AU) (which was before the boom), old house, which was in need of renovation too, perhaps it's worth 300 thou now, anyway where I am now, Redcliffe, you can buy a brick 4 bed for around this price, a new 4 bed for 280 (There's a new estate being built near me a four bed , 600, to 700 plot, Houses are listed for 280, that's what they are being advertised as in the local free paper, a far nicer house. The reason because it's further travelling distance to the CBD etc.

cheers

scoobydooathome

All these ex pat-dreamers will be in for reality check when they return to the U.K. you all seem to think you know a lot about the U.K. considering none of you live here ...

If you have not made a go of it in OZ, what makes you think you're going to make it work here, sounds like a ''born loser'' to me,

Someone said 'The newspapers don't print good news' urm does that answer your question,

Pommie you are talking out where the sun don't shine mate !!!

Welcome to the land of crime,

I wish you well and good luck,

captaincook

This thread should be framed and saved - its the most realistic of any i've read over the years and says it how it is.

This forum was a joke 18 months ago full of rubbish from Brits who had never lived in Oz or only visited for weeks on holiday. The bullshit was happily stoked by a batch of migration agents, web site promoters and a few homesick ozzies.

Now there is both sides of the story being told. When I moved to Oz 5 years ago the only information available was a newspaper you had to suscribe to via Oz House which featured lovely happy little stories of people who had moved to Oz and were having a wonderful time.

My wife's Australian so we will always either live here or be connected to it. I actually love a lot of Australia and I have done so since I first visited 12 years ago now.

However, one of the biggest problem for me today is the blinkered approach everyone adopts here. The Brits are such an honest lot and generally say it how it is - good or bad. The problems with the Ozzies is that they will never admit to the negatives. They will harp on about the beaches and the sunny days and the bbqs - its a complete obsession here to promote Australia but when you actually live here for a decent length of time and see it how it really is you get sick of the rubbish being talked.

There are clearly areas such as work conditions, taxes, isolation, cost of healthcare, high unemployment, cost of living etc. that is far worse than the UK. There are also clearly things such as climate that are better in some parts. Its really quite sad that a country has to rely so much on promoting an image which is false or not reality day to day for the majority.

Good luck to everybody posting here and reading. I would'nt change a thing about moving here and I am glad we did. It has been fascinating and a life changing experience. It is not a one way ticket anymore and the costs of moving between countries is not much more than moving house in UK. The one big thing moving to Oz does make you realise is that England ain't such a bad place after all. But also I think if you want to stay in Oz long term you have to follow in the footsteps of the £10 poms and actually become Australian - once you forget about Uk and accept Oz faults and all as your home, get interests and friends here then you will be able to make a go if it.

scoobydooathome

Hi Captain Cook,

I enjoyed reading your post, it is nice to hear a honest and unbiased opinion, well said,

Cheers,