new-leaf

Its a good thing that they aren't left alone then.

Sorry, i couldn't leave this bit alone.

First off, just because something isn't "normal" in your opinion doesn't make it crazy or crackpot.

As Albert Einstein said

The deterioration of standards have come in the form of the UK league tables.

"Juking the stats" is what its called and the video link below describes what I've seen in UK schools from teachers whether its them talking about it during breaks or actively in the classroom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ogxZxu6cjM

Bermudashorts

And history has shown that old methods work best on the whole and lead to a better educated general population. Now we have falling standards, school leavers that cannot add up and young teachers that cannot even spell, probably because they never did spelling tests or never had their spelling corrected.

No need to rip up old methods because a minority don't like structure or tests or whatever. Exams have also been shown time and time again to be an excellent indication of understanding. In my years od academia I do not recall a single time when the best results at exams were not achieved by those that demonstrated the best understanding of the topics during the course of the year.

Bermudashorts

Well first off I haven't said it was crackpot because it is not "normal" in my opinion. I just said it was crackpot.

Oh and I didn't say anything about children being left alone either, I said children being left to decide for themselves.

If you want a debate, you really are going to have to comment on what I have said, not make things up.

roaringmouse

It's nothing to do with a "minority not liking structure or tests", it's to do with how different people learn in different ways.

Zen10

Must say I'm with BS on this one. There has been a demonstrable, clear drop in standards over the last 30 odd years, exactly corresponding to innovations in education methods.

In the 1950s, FE students in English learnt Chaucer, Byron, Wordsworth, Hardy, Bacon, Milton, Marlowe, Shakespeare and many others. By the 1990s university lecturers were complaining that English students were arriving without having read any literature pre-20th century except for a couple of Shakespeare plays.

You only have to read older literature to see the decay. I am reading Jane Austen at the moment, on my wife's recommendation (you guessed it, my comprehensive never taught me anything like this), and I am astonished at the articulacy. Contemporary writing is very childish in comparison, even by respected authors.

Dorothy

You're right, Zen. Look at the number of posters on here, native English speakers, who can't understand simple grammar. The amount of apostrophe abuse by people is appalling. I actually had to correct one of my university lecturers on this not long ago. One of the questions in a tutorial was a medication calculation..."If Sandra take's 150 mg of aspirin per day and she has a prescription for 50 100 mg tablets, how many day's will her prescription last?"

I know I sound like my parents, but back in my day () spelling and grammar were taught in primary school and reinforced throughout high school.

Zen10

I quite agree, Dorothy. Your example of the university tutorial is pretty shocking. I saw a similar error on a sign advertising a high school here in Adelaide - advertising a high school! When I first starting marking university papers, many years ago now, I asked if I should mark down for mistakes in grammar and spelling, and I was told "no", not unless they were absolutely appalling and throughout the whole piece. So you're right to say these things are not enforced any more.

Swerv-o

This is very true - The number of people who think that 'being' and 'been' are interchangeable is definitely on the rise. The same with confusion over 'there' and 'their'.


S

Zen10

It's not impossible to make these mistakes in writing even if you well know the difference. When I proof-read something I have written I often find howlers in there, but that's because you write fast and "in your mind". The failure of a poor education is not being able to know you have made these errors and correct them when you read through your work, rather than never making them in the first place.

The evidence for me is in the way I was taught modern languages. French was taught by a strict woman, absolutely no-nonsense at all, rote, and today I can speak French quite well, read novels, etc. The woman who taught German was more of a "whatever floats your boat" kind, with no control over the class. My parents had to hire a private tutor to get me through the exam, and today I can only say a few basic sentences.

Sally Redux

Rote learning definitely has its place.

I was very shocked by my kids' poor grasp of times tables and French verbs. I can call them to mind instantly after 35-odd years while they're going derr...derr...

I am a qualified FE lecturer and fully agree that everyone learns in different ways, and like to see a variety of methods used. However, declining standards in the basics do horrify me.

roaringmouse

There are also other factors to consider for that time period.

Swerv-o

Sorry that's what I meant - people who are unable to identify the difference between these words - who think that they swap them around at will.


S

Zen10

I was never taught the times-table and I struggle with it to this day. I'm not too bad at algebra, if I sit down and think about it, and I can do long division but that is because I taught myself how to do it. My mother can beat me on any multiplication because she knows the times table, taught by rote.

So I vote for rote!

Zen10

Oh sure - they're, there, their. I've even seen theyr'e a few times. It's its. Formerly, formally.

Amazulu

Rote learning has it's place - especially for the basics. My son's school are big on it.

Many Asian countries use rote learning (recently read stuff about India) for everything. That's not a good idea.