cnsxxx09

Hi (apologies in advance for the essay!)

Myself & my wife visited Sydney/Melbourne/Adelaide last Sept/Oct as tourists but also with a view to 'checking them out'.
Adelaide was nice - but too quiet & isolated (I've never seen a quieter rush hour!).
Melbourne was not as impressive as we had hoped, it was also cold & wet.
Syndney we liked - but we suspect that we were not easily able to remove our (metaphorical) tourist hats.

It doesn't need me to tell anyone that moving abroad is a huge move and it's important to make sure that you get it right. So, I have many (too many!) questions that I hope someone can help with. If there is an FAQ covering many of these then a polite link will also be fine.

Firstly, what is the truth with the weather? On UK TV it's always portayed as warm & sunny but Melbourne in Sept was depressing. I hate the UK weather and don't want to move to a somewhere as bad as the UK. Currently we have lived near Frankfurt for the last few years (trialing living abroad) and the weather here is ok - cold winters are acceptable [*much* colder than UK, but with advantage of affordable skiing], but nice warm summers were you can be wearing T-Shirts very late in the evening - don't need a jumper/jacket for almost 6 months of the year - perfect!

Also, we experienced a feeling of isolation - it seemed so far to the next hub of civilisation. Does that drive people nuts? In the UK it can be maybe a 30 min drive between several large cities. Where I am now I can drive to one of half-a-dozen countries in only a few hours and experience different languages, cultures, different scenery, lots of history. Is it easy to cope without that?

I'm sure people get homesick. When you leave people say that they will visit - but do they actually do it? Distance and money (even from UK to Germany!) seems to put people off. Is it realistic to plan & afford trips back to the UK every now & again?

And what is the value of the Australian dollar? - does earning Australian wages make it difficult to pay for overseas travel and vacations? And if there was a need to move back to the UK would you find that such an option is priced out?

Which brings me to house prices - and here I'm sure that Australia is much better than the UK - is there good quality affordable housing available within easy commute from Melbourne CBD? I expect so but I thought that Germany was much cheaper than the UK when I moved here and got that totally wrong! Knowing v.little about Melbourne districts, are there any places to avoid and/or seek out as hot-spots?

Is commuting bearable? (in the UK it certainly is not!).

What about the quality of TV. The stuff we saw in the hotel rooms was not very good - but then again stuff in hotel rooms is usually limited to a few channels (I hope!). Currently I have Sky and am spoilt for choice.
Is it possible to get UK TV? (and I don't mean 6 month old repeats of Eastenders!); perhaps on some cable stations? Or is that something we are waiting for with the explosion of broadband Internet TV (hopefully only around the corner).

Speaking of UK stuff, what about goods? Overall we were quite happy with the supermarkets (in Germany they are awful, about 20 years behind the UK - don't even take credit cards, still charge deposits on bottles, and don't even ask about Internet shopping). Is it easy to get ex-pat stuff? I know about the on-line sites but even near me there is an ex-pat shop with perishables as well as the usual bisto, marmite, etc stuff that people miss. Any such shops in Melbourne? (must be a market for it!).
My wife will not even consider moving somewhere unless she can get L'Oreal Elnet hairspray - but we couldn't find it anywhere in Australia (don't think L'Oreal have a presence) and nobody had heard of it.

I have many more questions but this post is already getting long so I'll save them for the next one :-).

But I'd be particularly interested in the view of someone that has moved to Melbourne and isn't wearing any 'rose-coloured' glasses. It's reassuring to hear if it's all good, but not realistic I suspect.

Chris

flip

I'm sorry but I don't think the place you're looking for exists.

Melbourne's known to be mixed in weather terms, it never gets as cold as the UK can and can get very hot - just imaging uk weather skewed by 5 - 10 degrees and you should be about right but if you want fly swatting weather year round you will be disappointed as it's cold right now but they haven't had snow for over 20 years until this week and that was only in the hills.

You can apparently go skiing in the winter only 3-4 hours drive away.

When we visited friends near Frankfurt we found it lacked colour and that though there were loads of people in restaurants we never saw anyone on the streets. Here so far I haven't found anywhere really crowded but there are plenty of people around and all I've met so far have been very friendly.

The suburbs mingle and you have to be a fair way from the city to get any "green belt" type land - if you want to be able to travel there is so much that is beautiful and nature's a big part. I love architecture and I was worried I'd miss that but there are many compensations and the city as you know is very attractive - walking along the river in summer, or by the fountains at the casinos are lovely.

I'm surprised how varied the suburbs can be and I can't wait to revisit the Ocean Road, Philip Island and so many others. I'm not even into sport but I appreciate the vast variety of activities (both participative and spectator).

There are so many cycle paths - I'm not sure if they rival Frankfurt or beat it.

People do visit if you want them to, if they can afford it, if they like you and they want to come to Australia - we're thrilled to have 5 bookings already for the first 18 months (maybe people don't think we'll last the distance).

We plan to go home every three years but I'm told if you are very homesick this can make things worse. I think we'll be OK.

I guess overseas travel will be dear but if you're living in Australia aren't there enough short-haul holidays to keep you happy.

We wouldn't have come here if we intended to return but if we weren't happy then I guess we'd bite the bullet. It wasn't cheap to get here either. Most major changes aren't - weddings, kids, divorces, house moves, emigrating - it's all down to luck with emigrating, exchange rates & the property market are just two issues.

You'll have to live here to decide where you'd like to live - there's such a variety and what's bearable commuting? Do you want coast, country, proximity to city - you can have it all but the closer more desirable areas aren't cheap.

TV's ok if you like American stuff. I understand the Sky equivalent is fine if you like that sort of thing.

Supermarket shopping is fine, you can get credit cards, debit cards, etc. Electrical goods are harder - there are less Comet/Curry type options but more than enough.

I've no idea about your wife's hairspray - if she really wants it I'm sure she can have a box shipped over or bring it with her.

It's a fantastic, wonderful, friendly, busy place that has its faults - if you want utopia .. good luck.

cnsxxx09

I think you misunderstood where I was coming from a bit. I'm not looking to find Melbourne as all my favourite things from my favourite places rolled into one (that would be daft) - I'm just expecting it to be a major life change and as a result I am wanting to know, from experience, if/how people have coped with it ok. I am already a ‘successful ex-pat’ – in the sense that I have lived outside the UK for the last 6 years, don’t go back often, and don’t really want/need to. That puts me in the position of already knowing some of the questions to ask, and knowing that moving anywhere is not going to be a bed of roses (so I’m not going to kid myself).

And don't get me wrong, Frankfurt is not my favourite place - it's described as soulless but ... the weather is better than the UK as is the central location. Apart from that I'm struggling ;-)
(On my first day at work in Frankfurt I asked a colleague where to go at the weekends and he pointed to the airport, railway station and motorway!).

If Melbourne in summer can be expected to be 5-10 degrees warmer than the UK then that is good enough for me - I think I need to revisit in summer too. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for from this post (stats from books are hard to visualise).

As for returning, I don't -intend- on doing that; but I have just this year experienced first hand that things in life just happen which you cannot predict - so it's good to bear these things in mind.

Where to live? A consultant working with me from Melbourne told be about the north-west of Melbourne (can't remember if it was to seek out or to avoid though!). I'm curious to find out a bit more about this area, need to try and catch up with him again!

What do I mean by bearable commuting? As an example, when I used to live in UK I could drive 25 miles to work and it would take 75 mins. Where I am now its 30 miles commute by car and takes 45 mins. The former is unbearable! and the latter is just fine. From what I remember of driving around Melbourne I think it should be close to what I experience now. Apart from those weird hook turns I had no problems driving around (I also drove the coastal road to Adelaide – wonderful route!).

I know Utopia doesn't exist - but it doesn't hurt to ask the difficult questions, do the background research, play devils advocate when needs be - rather than just move somewhere with a naive impression that everything will be just rosy.
I was more in the latter frame of mind when I moved to my current location and I got a rude awakening - but it has made the last few years interesting/challenging and I've coped just fine. But it taught me to do a *lot* of research - to be forewarned is to be forearmed, so to speak.

So, are there ex-pat shops in Melbourne? Or do you find you don’t need them? Any other thoughts?

wongstonn

Hi

As for the commute, well I live in Mt Eliza, some 45km south east of Melbourne CBD, and must commute to the CBD. At rush hour by car this is typically 1hr 25mins, out of rush hour 1hour. By train during rush hour the journey is 1hr 15min to which one must naturally add trvel time getting to and from stations. Most Melburnians think one is mad to live that far out and still work in the CBD, so work on the basis that these timing are the upper limit. You did mention living in NW Melbourne, and though not an expert on the region, I'd imagine the commute would be far less than the one I put up with.

It is difficult to comment on what your potential situation would be as you did not indicate the rent/house price range you would consider living in, which of course determines where you might live.

It hasn't occurred to me to find an ex-pat shop. I struggle to think of anything that I've wanted that has taken me down this path. I think you mentioned food in your original post. Relative weaknesses in the local cuisine is the range of cured meats and cheeses. In other areas the food is of much higher quality than UK supermarket fare - I think of meat (except cured) and fruit and veg. Seems to have more flavour and less chemicals than most UK stuff.

Neil

JAJ

You may have been unlucky. From September to December inclusive, you can get really any kind of weather in Melbourne. It can be 33 one day and 13 the next.



It depends on the person, ie it bothers some, but not others.


If frequent travel to the UK is part of your plan, then Australia may not be the place for you.

It can be a problem for older people, especially those who are out of the UK house market. If you're younger it's less of an issue - you'll be earning more in UK pounds in the UK.

And on top of all of this - have you considered visas? Will you qualify for an immigrant visa or not?

The DIMIA website's a 'must read' but also take a look at http://www.liveinvictoria.vic.gov.au



Jeremy

wombat42

Was'nt it 0-5 degees and snowing in Melbourne a few days ago, if you want warm weather try Queensland.

Storini

Er, question overload there: so, just some random observations. Apologies if stating the obvious.

Oz generally allows a more out-door lifestyle. Instead of watching TV, you should be surfing, cycling, swimming, boating, fishing, tennis, golf ... Camping in particular is very popular as it allows you to really sink into the haunting and addictive landscape. Also pub and bbq if you like...

Melbourne is a multi-cultural city itself. For a bigger culture shock, all of South-East Asia is within reasonable flying distance. Although the flights are quite expensive, the countries are cheap, and packages are readily available. Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, HK, Malaysia: plenty to see there. You won't find the Sistine Chapel, but you will find Angkor Wat. Also there's the whole South Pacific, Polynesia etc, a fascinating area also.

I have seen criticisms that some Oz employers don't off enough paid holiday, or not in the first year etc. More opinions on how many days paid leave, how many public holidays etc welcome. Certainly, they conditions would be worse than Germany where ample holidays are the norm (and possibly an explanation for its economic problems).

Jobs: http://www.seek.com.au/

Housing: http://www.realestate.com.au/

If I was you, I wouldn't rule out Sydney, it might have a bit more of the "buzz" you might be after, though house prices and commuting would be much more of a challenge than Melbourne, depending on the available equity you bring in.

Shops are excellent, in fact the problem with Oz is its dependence on huge amounts of imports of manufactured goods, its exports largely being minerals dug up in WA. David Jones in Oz is effectively identical to John Lewis partnership in UK.

Although it's a big move, it doesn't have to be for life. You could treat it as a two-year assignment, get the passport, and move back to the UK without too much loss.

flip

Where to live? A consultant working with me from Melbourne told be about the north-west of Melbourne (can't remember if it was to seek out or to avoid though!). I'm curious to find out a bit more about this area, need to try and catch up with him again!

Sorry didn't mean to be grumpy - it was rather late and after 3 whole weeks in my new home I think it's wonderful and am very protective - I know the honeymoon period may wear off but it is pretty easy to like here.

Ex-pat shops? Well me and mine are pretty fussy about food. Processed stuff is dearer, meat about the same but holds less water and fruit and veg cheaper. Remember you're likely to be on a lower income though. Like Wongston said cured meats aren't as good and pork products (ham, sausages and bacon) are definitely different.

I have no idea about ex-pat shops and have no need of them although in Germany I definitely would have. My friends made regular trips home to get supplies and used the expat shop but here there's plenty of choice and, as I said, we're a fussy lot.

As far as somewhere to live. Get yourself a map (thanks for yours Neil it was a lot of help and I'll still buy you that drink on the 12th), check out the web-sites and then when you get here drive around and change your mind about everywhere.

We're nowhere near where I wanted to live and my husband has to drive at least an hour at 6.45 am but we've more space around us (not ours of course), people are even friendlier, and it's even more laid back (less burglaries report, less grafitti, etc than places the same price but nearer into town.

Having said that I have no idea yet where we'll buy as the coast has always been my thing and I really wanted Mount Eliza but hubby was worried about commuting that far.

And don't get me wrong, Frankfurt is not my favourite place - it's described as soulless but ... the weather is better than the UK as is the central location. Apart from that I'm struggling ;-)
(On my first day at work in Frankfurt I asked a colleague where to go at the weekends and he pointed to the airport, railway station and motorway!).

People who live on the west would never usually make the move east and vice versa so you're unlikely to get an unbiased opinion there.

good luck.

cnsxxx09

Thanks everyone for the info ...

I think I'll be fine with the weather. It can get to -15 here in Winter ... which is the price I readily accept for having warm summers. So Melbourne already sounds better - the idea of it being as cold as 0-5 degrees and snowing for the first time in 20 years sounds quite funny in comparison. Where I live now you have to change your tyres ever 6 months to swap between your winter tyres and your summer tyres!

To live near the coast sounds great - I miss that where I am now (I'm from Wirral peninsula originally) so thanks for the Mount Eliza tip. I did the drive from Adelaide to Cape Jervis last year and that was a long and not so enoyable drive but I suspect main commuting routes are bearable by comparison? Are road tolls any great concern for daily commutes?

For rent/house prices I am not sure. I currently pay about EUR 1000 (A$1600) per month in rent - but then again I am earning European wages with a European cost of living. I don't own a property so that should make moving abroad easier as well, but home ownership in Germany is not so common; I suspect that Australia is the opposite.

It was a good point about holidays. Where I am now I get about 35 days holiday (which is a bit too much) and 12 days public holiday. I read that in the USA they get only 10 days holiday. How does Australia compare? Similar to UK would sound fine.

For shops we certainly made a point of checking them out - which in Adelaide was not good but the locals told us that if they want to go shopping then they just fly to Melbourne! I'm not used to a Woolies selling food!! DJ's food hall seemed quite good.

Has anyone done the move and taken a cat? My wife is worried about the 3 months quarntine and rumours of horror stories (high attrition rate in transit or quarantine). I haven't found anything to back up the horror stories and cats seem quite adaptable creatures.

Also, flip mentioned that "It wasn't cheap to get here either. Most major changes aren't". I guess it doesn't matter how much background reading you do and how many estimates you make - the only way of accurately knowing how much it will all cost is .... afterwards! I'm pretty sure I have saved up enough, but what in particular has cost people more than expected? What were the extra costs that people didn't think to plan for etc? Any ball-park figures, to the nearest £5,000, about how much it cost people?

Badge

Its been a while...recall that stuff..

Melbourne has been on average 7-10 degrees at night, 13-14 in the day in winter, 20-40(!) in the summer. Bit like the Med. Proper seasons.

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mathmagician

Depends on why you're moving and what you actually want, doesn't it? I moved to Melb. as a teenager, and spent ten years in the UK recently, only moving back to Aus. because of my partner wanting to taste the Oz experience. The climate is hot from Dec til April. We also have Mount Buller only 3 hours drive away - great for a bit of skiing.

Although Sydney is meant to have the hotter weather - Melb tends to have more hot days (40+) and a lot drier heat - which are a lot more bearable than the humid weather further north. The TV's shit country-wide and I wouldn't pay any money to Fox - but if you are a bit of a chav, you probably would want to do it cos you wouldn't want a culture change, would you?

If you are into supermarket Kulture(!) then Coles and IGA are fab!!!!! But then again the markets are great in the inner city (Prahan and Vic) which sell everything - even organic - pound for dollar. It's the cheapest way to live.

Wouldn't bother with suburbs, they are soulless centres for humans - bit like the Matrix - where people are harvested - perfect for your chav mentality! You get a big house but no culture or fun - your local will be some great big "All- You -Can-Eat" Mega-Restuarant at the intersection of two boring roads - Bit like a Happy Eater. If you choose this path, you will lose all will to live and end up driving a 4+ litre Commodore or a 4-Wheel Drive - using it as an excuse for having to tow a caravan and then wondering why your child has asthma.

And also bear in mind, we also have Howard - I have never met anyone who actually voted for him. That reminds me - you won't have any workers' rights by the time you get here; unless you're self-employed; 'cos we now have a self-righteous prick who only stands up for the tossers, and is destroying the unions over here. Are you sure that you want to emigrate?; at the moment you still have the European Court - we have no such rights now....

Seriously, this is an important issue. Industrial relations over here are at the lowest they have been for decades. No job security or any rights as an employee - Howard has got rid of unfair dismissal rights, everyone is cautious about jobs. Don't be hasty!!

cnsxxx09

Great! That already cuts my average trip by half. Are the slopes well maintained? Chair lifts (instead of those horrible things you have to hold onto). How long is the ski season?

Missed all this chav stuff being overseas already - I hope a desire for good quality TV doesn't make me a chav! (just been enjoying the Ashes on C4). S'pose I should sell my skis and try and live up to the stereotype then!

We used to have an M&S in Frankfurt - sheer bliss. The idea of luxury food, or even paying over the odds for quality, is just not known over here. :-(
By comparison, Sainsburys over here would be Harrods food hall when compared. Is there Internet shopping for groceries?

Yikes! Not my idea of utopia. :-(

Wow, thanks for the info - these are exactly the kinds of info that you don't come across or discover when researching.

mathmagician

The slopes are well maintained and yes they have ski lifts. They still run some of them in summer for the mountain bikers to enjoy their downhill runs.

No, good quality TV is hard to find! We have two non-commercial channels only on free-to-air TV. SBS which is a national station which caters for the international community, with news from about 20 countries. It currently shows the cricket (well done so far England!!) and international sport. It also has lots of foreign films. Then we have the ABC which is the government station which shows mostly British shows and dramas.

Hard to get some English food. Have found a shop locally which sells Walkers and Frazzles, which I love!! Oh and Twiglets! For luxury food, there is a department store called David Jones, which has a lovely food hall, with all sorts of goodies.

Good luck with the decision!

annajw

But let's not forget the most important of these questions...

I am happy to tell you that L'oreal Elnet is available

Badge

Stay semi-rural or live in a decent suburb within 20mins of the CBD then you will avoid all the nondescript burbs.

If you can't afford that, then move elsewhere.

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