Special Needs Education in Australia
Jan 24th 2006, 1:34 pm
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Special Needs Education in Australia
I would be very interested to read of any one who has had to call upon any of the services associated with special needs in Australia. In particular in schools.
We have been here a year and have had to fight tooth and nail for services which we were told would be available to our adopted children. Despite the fight (which continues) the provision of support lags light years behind the UK - which we took for granted. For example in the UK there has been the policy of "inclusion" for many years. So children with mild disabilities would go to main stream schools and be given support where needed. Even quite severely disabled children where included in this policy when I was a teacher. I was taken back to discover that in New South Wales "Special Schools" are the norm where children with disabilities are segregated from non disabled children for the whole of their school years - and probably beyond. We have been on a very steep learning curve.
We have been here a year and have had to fight tooth and nail for services which we were told would be available to our adopted children. Despite the fight (which continues) the provision of support lags light years behind the UK - which we took for granted. For example in the UK there has been the policy of "inclusion" for many years. So children with mild disabilities would go to main stream schools and be given support where needed. Even quite severely disabled children where included in this policy when I was a teacher. I was taken back to discover that in New South Wales "Special Schools" are the norm where children with disabilities are segregated from non disabled children for the whole of their school years - and probably beyond. We have been on a very steep learning curve.
Jan 24th 2006, 3:22 pm
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Originally Posted by Ian12
I would be very interested to read of any one who has had to call upon any of the services associated with special needs in Australia. In particular in schools.
We have been here a year and have had to fight tooth and nail for services which we were told would be available to our adopted children. Despite the fight (which continues) the provision of support lags light years behind the UK - which we took for granted. For example in the UK there has been the policy of "inclusion" for many years. So children with mild disabilities would go to main stream schools and be given support where needed. Even quite severely disabled children where included in this policy when I was a teacher. I was taken back to discover that in New South Wales "Special Schools" are the norm where children with disabilities are segregated from non disabled children for the whole of their school years - and probably beyond. We have been on a very steep learning curve.
We have been here a year and have had to fight tooth and nail for services which we were told would be available to our adopted children. Despite the fight (which continues) the provision of support lags light years behind the UK - which we took for granted. For example in the UK there has been the policy of "inclusion" for many years. So children with mild disabilities would go to main stream schools and be given support where needed. Even quite severely disabled children where included in this policy when I was a teacher. I was taken back to discover that in New South Wales "Special Schools" are the norm where children with disabilities are segregated from non disabled children for the whole of their school years - and probably beyond. We have been on a very steep learning curve.
In terms of students with disabilities, in New South Wales schools there is currently a continuum of services provided (from inclusion in mainstream classes to enrolment in support classes and SSPs), with parents given considerable choice in determining which option is most appropriate for their child.
This choice is not absolute, however. In relation to SSP and support class places, it is dependent on availability.
In contrast, unless a school can argue that "unjustifiable hardship" would result if a particular child joined the school, parents can choose to enrol their child with a disability in their local school without having to go through a selection process.
The Funding Support Program aims to provide necessary funds to support this choice, with funding allocated to the individual rather than to the school or district. In addition, substantial capital funds are available to schools to make them accessible to students with disabilities.
Choice of placement also depends on the knowledge parents have of the potential advantages and disadvantages of each option. This latter is often influenced by parental exposure to advocates for one view or another.
Teachers in SSPs claim, for example, that health and community services workers involved in early intervention programs for children living with disabilities tend to be pro-inclusion, and to discourage parents from considering alternatives, even in extreme cases.
Inclusion advocacy groups, on the other hand, claim that mainstream school principals and district officers sometimes put pressure on parents to consider less inclusive, more specialised and segregated options, especially for students with behavioural problems, severe disabilities or high support needs.
Jan 24th 2006, 6:13 pm
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Originally Posted by Ian12
I would be very interested to read of any one who has had to call upon any of the services associated with special needs in Australia. In particular in schools.
We have been here a year and have had to fight tooth and nail for services which we were told would be available to our adopted children. Despite the fight (which continues) the provision of support lags light years behind the UK - which we took for granted. For example in the UK there has been the policy of "inclusion" for many years. So children with mild disabilities would go to main stream schools and be given support where needed. Even quite severely disabled children where included in this policy when I was a teacher. I was taken back to discover that in New South Wales "Special Schools" are the norm where children with disabilities are segregated from non disabled children for the whole of their school years - and probably beyond. We have been on a very steep learning curve.
We have been here a year and have had to fight tooth and nail for services which we were told would be available to our adopted children. Despite the fight (which continues) the provision of support lags light years behind the UK - which we took for granted. For example in the UK there has been the policy of "inclusion" for many years. So children with mild disabilities would go to main stream schools and be given support where needed. Even quite severely disabled children where included in this policy when I was a teacher. I was taken back to discover that in New South Wales "Special Schools" are the norm where children with disabilities are segregated from non disabled children for the whole of their school years - and probably beyond. We have been on a very steep learning curve.
We have a daughter with CP who we want to attend mainstream school. She attends mainstream in the UK with a TA support. Do you think we will encounter problems in Oz.
regards
cardmaker2.
Jan 24th 2006, 7:57 pm
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Friends of ours who we made whilst in Perth told us about their youngest sons dilema soon after starting school.
The son has dyslexia but was bought out to the fromt of the class whilst the teacher pointed to his head and told the class....
'***** has something wrong with his brain, so can we all be nice to him'
I could hardly believe it when she told me. They went up to the school and had words, their son was found another school shortly after.
Oz is behind when it comes to children who may need extra tuition.
The son has dyslexia but was bought out to the fromt of the class whilst the teacher pointed to his head and told the class....
'***** has something wrong with his brain, so can we all be nice to him'
I could hardly believe it when she told me. They went up to the school and had words, their son was found another school shortly after.
Oz is behind when it comes to children who may need extra tuition.
Last edited by janeyray; Jan 24th 2006 at 9:04 pm.
Jan 24th 2006, 8:25 pm
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
We are in Victoria and have had nothing but excellent service from the local schools. Our daughter has dyslexia and has been integrated into the class without any comment made. She has seen an occupational health worker as she had a full report done in Belgium before we left, and will start the new year with a plan in place. Her teacher's comment to me was that her literacy would usually warrant keeping her down but given her condition and overall ability and social skills that hadn't been considered. She is very happy at the school and also our younger son has seen the occupational health worker just to be sure that his difficulties with the move aren't indicative of any other problems. There is no stigma with any of this it is common place and noone makes any big deal about it.
We do have a special needs school in the town but I have seen disabled kids in the mainstream schools as well so it is a matter of choice and facilities. Even the special needs school is based in the grounds of another mainstream primary school so the kids are not isolated. The big difference is in the curriculum which is more life skills based for the older kids.
Good luck with it.
Nicky
We do have a special needs school in the town but I have seen disabled kids in the mainstream schools as well so it is a matter of choice and facilities. Even the special needs school is based in the grounds of another mainstream primary school so the kids are not isolated. The big difference is in the curriculum which is more life skills based for the older kids.
Good luck with it.
Nicky
Jan 25th 2006, 9:45 am
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Dear Vash
Your email is very informative. Thank you for responding. Much of this I have gleaned elsewhere but clearly you have a handle on the situation in NSW. Is this your background?
My puzzle is this. How can two children both with British "statements of need" be determined in need of significant help - 15 hours each child class room aid, 2 hours speech therapy and psychological support - suddenly by process of a 23 hour flight be regarded as as only mildly disabled and needing no speech therapy and 2 hours a week class room support.
I have got myself involved in a family advocacy group but it has been an uphill slog. We feel so brow beaten that we are reluctantly contemplating returning to the UK even though we will incur losses on the sale of our home here and significant removal costs. We have been here a year and to put it bluntly it feels as if the Ozzie system is ready to see my kids rot.
Teachers in SSPs claim, for example, that health and community services workers involved in early intervention programs for children living with disabilities tend to be pro-inclusion, and to discourage parents from considering alternatives, even in extreme cases.
Inclusion advocacy groups, on the other hand, claim that mainstream school principals and district officers sometimes put pressure on parents to consider less inclusive, more specialised and segregated options, especially for students with behavioural problems, severe disabilities or high support needs.
[/indent]
Source.[/QUOTE]
Your email is very informative. Thank you for responding. Much of this I have gleaned elsewhere but clearly you have a handle on the situation in NSW. Is this your background?
My puzzle is this. How can two children both with British "statements of need" be determined in need of significant help - 15 hours each child class room aid, 2 hours speech therapy and psychological support - suddenly by process of a 23 hour flight be regarded as as only mildly disabled and needing no speech therapy and 2 hours a week class room support.
I have got myself involved in a family advocacy group but it has been an uphill slog. We feel so brow beaten that we are reluctantly contemplating returning to the UK even though we will incur losses on the sale of our home here and significant removal costs. We have been here a year and to put it bluntly it feels as if the Ozzie system is ready to see my kids rot.
Teachers in SSPs claim, for example, that health and community services workers involved in early intervention programs for children living with disabilities tend to be pro-inclusion, and to discourage parents from considering alternatives, even in extreme cases.
Inclusion advocacy groups, on the other hand, claim that mainstream school principals and district officers sometimes put pressure on parents to consider less inclusive, more specialised and segregated options, especially for students with behavioural problems, severe disabilities or high support needs.
[/indent]
Source.[/QUOTE]
Jan 25th 2006, 9:46 am
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Originally Posted by cardmaker2
Do you mind if I ask what specials needs your children have.?
We have a daughter with CP who we want to attend mainstream school. She attends mainstream in the UK with a TA support. Do you think we will encounter problems in Oz.
regards
cardmaker2.
We have a daughter with CP who we want to attend mainstream school. She attends mainstream in the UK with a TA support. Do you think we will encounter problems in Oz.
regards
cardmaker2.
Jan 25th 2006, 10:50 am
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Originally Posted by Ian12
Dear Vash
Your email is very informative. Thank you for responding.
Your email is very informative. Thank you for responding.
Much of this I have gleaned elsewhere but clearly you have a handle on the situation in NSW. Is this your background?
The general policy in Australia is that of inclusion (see also NickyP's helpful post) and has been since the 80s - though there are always exceptions to the rule.
For example, I had a friend in Western Australia whose mother was employed by the local primary school as a teacher for children with special needs. In this case, she gave private one-to-one tuition for a little girl with Down Syndrome, who simply wasn't able to cope with regular classes.
That was in a regular state primary school, situated in a semi-rural district. I mention this just so you know that it wasn't some sort of unique situation at a swanky private school in a rich suburb; it was a very down-to-earth place, where all the locals were what you'd call "working class."
So I see no reason why your children shouldn't be getting the assistance that they require.
My puzzle is this. How can two children both with British "statements of need" be determined in need of significant help - 15 hours each child class room aid, 2 hours speech therapy and psychological support - suddenly by process of a 23 hour flight be regarded as as only mildly disabled and needing no speech therapy and 2 hours a week class room support.
Do you mind if I ask a few questions?
- Did you bring any documentation from the UK, which shows (a) the level of care that your children need, (b) who provided it, and (c) how this was assessed?
- Have you sought a "second opinion" assessment of your children's needs at a clinic or medical centre of any sort? (For the purposes of your application, the government will require you to provide an assessment by a relevant specialist.)
- What is the nature of your children's specific needs?
- Have you tried speaking to Centrelink?
This government site provides a fairly decent overview of the options available and the hoops you'll be required to jump through.
It also provides a handful of hypothetical cases which you can compare with your own situation.
Don't know if any of this is very helpful, but it's about the best I can do while I'm still living in the UK!
Jan 25th 2006, 7:55 pm
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Thanks for coming back on this Vash.
Yes we do have the "statement of needs" which is the British (Legal) document outlining their needs and how they should be met. In addition we have a portfolio for each child from the adoption services documenting their health, social and educational difficulties.
All of the reports have been collaborated by local Public Child Specialist services. In other words they all agree that the children need the services as outlined in the statement of needs. Their disability is Delayed Development.
The Education Dept is where we are coming unstuck. They simply say that "funding is not available" and that their are "insufficient resources"
We are in the process of appeal but we feel as though w are banging our heads against a brick wall.
Thanks
Ian
Yes we do have the "statement of needs" which is the British (Legal) document outlining their needs and how they should be met. In addition we have a portfolio for each child from the adoption services documenting their health, social and educational difficulties.
All of the reports have been collaborated by local Public Child Specialist services. In other words they all agree that the children need the services as outlined in the statement of needs. Their disability is Delayed Development.
The Education Dept is where we are coming unstuck. They simply say that "funding is not available" and that their are "insufficient resources"
We are in the process of appeal but we feel as though w are banging our heads against a brick wall.
Thanks
Ian
Originally Posted by Vash the Stampede
Cheers.
No, but I do have friends back home in Australia with "special needs" children, so I knew where to find the information. I'm from Western Australia myself, and have no children, so I haven't actually experienced the system first hand.
The general policy in Australia is that of inclusion (see also NickyP's helpful post) and has been since the 80s - though there are always exceptions to the rule.
For example, I had a friend in Western Australia whose mother was employed by the local primary school as a teacher for children with special needs. In this case, she gave private one-to-one tuition for a little girl with Down Syndrome, who simply wasn't able to cope with regular classes.
That was in a regular state primary school, situated in a semi-rural district. I mention this just so you know that it wasn't some sort of unique situation at a swanky private school in a rich suburb; it was a very down-to-earth place, where all the locals were what you'd call "working class."
So I see no reason why your children shouldn't be getting the assistance that they require.
I don't know. That sounds like an alarming discrepancy to me - so my guess is that somebody in the education system isn't doing their job properly.
Do you mind if I ask a few questions?
This government site provides a fairly decent overview of the options available and the hoops you'll be required to jump through.
It also provides a handful of hypothetical cases which you can compare with your own situation.
Don't know if any of this is very helpful, but it's about the best I can do while I'm still living in the UK!
No, but I do have friends back home in Australia with "special needs" children, so I knew where to find the information. I'm from Western Australia myself, and have no children, so I haven't actually experienced the system first hand.
The general policy in Australia is that of inclusion (see also NickyP's helpful post) and has been since the 80s - though there are always exceptions to the rule.
For example, I had a friend in Western Australia whose mother was employed by the local primary school as a teacher for children with special needs. In this case, she gave private one-to-one tuition for a little girl with Down Syndrome, who simply wasn't able to cope with regular classes.
That was in a regular state primary school, situated in a semi-rural district. I mention this just so you know that it wasn't some sort of unique situation at a swanky private school in a rich suburb; it was a very down-to-earth place, where all the locals were what you'd call "working class."
So I see no reason why your children shouldn't be getting the assistance that they require.
I don't know. That sounds like an alarming discrepancy to me - so my guess is that somebody in the education system isn't doing their job properly.
Do you mind if I ask a few questions?
- Did you bring any documentation from the UK, which shows (a) the level of care that your children need, (b) who provided it, and (c) how this was assessed?
- Have you sought a "second opinion" assessment of your children's needs at a clinic or medical centre of any sort? (For the purposes of your application, the government will require you to provide an assessment by a relevant specialist.)
- What is the nature of your children's specific needs?
- Have you tried speaking to Centrelink?
This government site provides a fairly decent overview of the options available and the hoops you'll be required to jump through.
It also provides a handful of hypothetical cases which you can compare with your own situation.
Don't know if any of this is very helpful, but it's about the best I can do while I'm still living in the UK!
Jan 26th 2006, 8:04 am
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Originally Posted by Ian12
Thanks for coming back on this Vash.
Yes we do have the "statement of needs" which is the British (Legal) document outlining their needs and how they should be met. In addition we have a portfolio for each child from the adoption services documenting their health, social and educational difficulties.
All of the reports have been collaborated by local Public Child Specialist services. In other words they all agree that the children need the services as outlined in the statement of needs. Their disability is Delayed Development.
The Education Dept is where we are coming unstuck. They simply say that "funding is not available" and that their are "insufficient resources."
We are in the process of appeal but we feel as though w are banging our heads against a brick wall.
Thanks
Ian
Yes we do have the "statement of needs" which is the British (Legal) document outlining their needs and how they should be met. In addition we have a portfolio for each child from the adoption services documenting their health, social and educational difficulties.
All of the reports have been collaborated by local Public Child Specialist services. In other words they all agree that the children need the services as outlined in the statement of needs. Their disability is Delayed Development.
The Education Dept is where we are coming unstuck. They simply say that "funding is not available" and that their are "insufficient resources."
We are in the process of appeal but we feel as though w are banging our heads against a brick wall.
Thanks
Ian
I must say that 15 hours each child class room aid, 2 hours speech therapy and psychological support does add up to a significant amount of support, at a considerable cost; it is entirely possible that when the Education Dept says that they can't afford it, they honestly can't afford it.
I'm afraid I can't add any more to this discussion, except to wish you well and hope that you make some progress via your local advocacy group.
Jan 30th 2006, 11:23 am
#11
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Budgets are always interesting subjects and what is and is not affordable. Like anything else it is how an organisation or a nation prioritises. I guess I wonder why it is OK for a minor politician to clock up a massive bill for overseas travel (read junket) and this can be afforded.
Originally Posted by Vash the Stampede
Ian - thanks for the information. You really do seem to have done your best on this one, and I can only applaud your determination.
I must say that 15 hours each child class room aid, 2 hours speech therapy and psychological support does add up to a significant amount of support, at a considerable cost; it is entirely possible that when the Education Dept says that they can't afford it, they honestly can't afford it.
I'm afraid I can't add any more to this discussion, except to wish you well and hope that you make some progress via your local advocacy group.
I must say that 15 hours each child class room aid, 2 hours speech therapy and psychological support does add up to a significant amount of support, at a considerable cost; it is entirely possible that when the Education Dept says that they can't afford it, they honestly can't afford it.
I'm afraid I can't add any more to this discussion, except to wish you well and hope that you make some progress via your local advocacy group.
Jan 30th 2006, 5:17 pm
#12
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Originally Posted by Ian12
Budgets are always interesting subjects and what is and is not affordable. Like anything else it is how an organisation or a nation prioritises. I guess I wonder why it is OK for a minor politician to clock up a massive bill for overseas travel (read junket) and this can be afforded.
This is just a thought, and I must stress I have absolutly no first hand knowledge, but are you encountering difficulty becuase of the type of visa you are currently on?
Also do you have to be in NSW? Education is state based so you may (and again I don't know) get better results in another state. It could be worth researching
Regards (and hoping you find the right answer for your future)
Abby
Jan 30th 2006, 8:57 pm
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Hello, I currently support children with statements of special needs in U.K; however, my friends children in Australia have what I would assess as mild learning difficulties and both attend special schools. When I asked my friend how one child was assessed for special school, she said they attended mainstream then the support worker (alocated for 2 hours a day) left. The teacher just said that *** should go to the special school as this was best for her. That was it. (she is in Victoria)
I was very surprised at Australian attitude to children with special needs, I presumed that they would be one of the elite countries with specialist inclusion units like we have - I work in a mainstream secondary school with a cognition and communication base suporting ASD,Aspergers,Dyslexia etc.
I do support inclusion as I have seen it work in primary and secondary.
I hope you get the support you are entitled to. Where abouts are you in Aus?
Another idea is to read the statement of special needs for Aus, I often tell parents to recite the special needs code of practice to pupil services to kick speech & lang up the a***!!! In my experience if you can name ie.
1:1 As part 3 of statement to provide blah blah..... page 10
this seems to scare them. Find anything that is legally binding. I am sorry if you have tried all of this, and keep trying xxx
I was very surprised at Australian attitude to children with special needs, I presumed that they would be one of the elite countries with specialist inclusion units like we have - I work in a mainstream secondary school with a cognition and communication base suporting ASD,Aspergers,Dyslexia etc.
I do support inclusion as I have seen it work in primary and secondary.
I hope you get the support you are entitled to. Where abouts are you in Aus?
Another idea is to read the statement of special needs for Aus, I often tell parents to recite the special needs code of practice to pupil services to kick speech & lang up the a***!!! In my experience if you can name ie.
1:1 As part 3 of statement to provide blah blah..... page 10
this seems to scare them. Find anything that is legally binding. I am sorry if you have tried all of this, and keep trying xxx
Last edited by Jaycee1; Jan 30th 2006 at 9:05 pm.
Jan 30th 2006, 9:13 pm
#14
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Hi Ian
Have you researched (I am sure you have) any schools which have special units for your needs. My daughter is at a main stream school which has a deaf support unit - not as intergrated as I would like - but it provides the support she used to have in main stream school in the UK and for part of the time she . This is only the high school, she had no support at all in primary for three years but because of her great start in the UK schools she managed ok. I am actually finding it difficult to get her our of the unit for some classes she is doing well in!
I know this is a different disability and will depend on the needs of the child but I have always been totally opposed to my daughter attending a special need school as she is of average intelligence only partially deaf. I had to fight very hard in the UK to get her into main stream and then statemented, even then a mad headmistress put her in a remedial class! I feel for you going through the search/fight for the best support. I moved soley to the area I live because of the high school support but at least for my daughter needs there has been some available.
Cheers
Have you researched (I am sure you have) any schools which have special units for your needs. My daughter is at a main stream school which has a deaf support unit - not as intergrated as I would like - but it provides the support she used to have in main stream school in the UK and for part of the time she . This is only the high school, she had no support at all in primary for three years but because of her great start in the UK schools she managed ok. I am actually finding it difficult to get her our of the unit for some classes she is doing well in!
I know this is a different disability and will depend on the needs of the child but I have always been totally opposed to my daughter attending a special need school as she is of average intelligence only partially deaf. I had to fight very hard in the UK to get her into main stream and then statemented, even then a mad headmistress put her in a remedial class! I feel for you going through the search/fight for the best support. I moved soley to the area I live because of the high school support but at least for my daughter needs there has been some available.
Cheers
Jan 31st 2006, 5:33 am
#15
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Re: Special Needs Education in Australia
Thanks Jaycee
Your input is appreciated. We are in Sydney.
Would you have the wording of special needs handy that you refer to. It might be useful to have it for my meeting this Friday. The problem is that Aus does not have a "statement of needs" equivillent, so they may just shrug their shoulders. We too were surprised that kids were still being shunted off into special schools when with some crative imagination, they could manage in a mainstream school.
QUOTE=Jaycee1]Hello, I currently support children with statements of special needs in U.K; however, my friends children in Australia have what I would assess as mild learning difficulties and both attend special schools. When I asked my friend how one child was assessed for special school, she said they attended mainstream then the support worker (alocated for 2 hours a day) left. The teacher just said that *** should go to the special school as this was best for her. That was it. (she is in Victoria)
I was very surprised at Australian attitude to children with special needs, I presumed that they would be one of the elite countries with specialist inclusion units like we have - I work in a mainstream secondary school with a cognition and communication base suporting ASD,Aspergers,Dyslexia etc.
I do support inclusion as I have seen it work in primary and secondary.
I hope you get the support you are entitled to. Where abouts are you in Aus?
Another idea is to read the statement of special needs for Aus, I often tell parents to recite the special needs code of practice to pupil services to kick speech & lang up the a***!!! In my experience if you can name ie.
1:1 As part 3 of statement to provide blah blah..... page 10
this seems to scare them. Find anything that is legally binding. I am sorry if you have tried all of this, and keep trying xxx[/QUOTE]
Your input is appreciated. We are in Sydney.
Would you have the wording of special needs handy that you refer to. It might be useful to have it for my meeting this Friday. The problem is that Aus does not have a "statement of needs" equivillent, so they may just shrug their shoulders. We too were surprised that kids were still being shunted off into special schools when with some crative imagination, they could manage in a mainstream school.
QUOTE=Jaycee1]Hello, I currently support children with statements of special needs in U.K; however, my friends children in Australia have what I would assess as mild learning difficulties and both attend special schools. When I asked my friend how one child was assessed for special school, she said they attended mainstream then the support worker (alocated for 2 hours a day) left. The teacher just said that *** should go to the special school as this was best for her. That was it. (she is in Victoria)
I was very surprised at Australian attitude to children with special needs, I presumed that they would be one of the elite countries with specialist inclusion units like we have - I work in a mainstream secondary school with a cognition and communication base suporting ASD,Aspergers,Dyslexia etc.
I do support inclusion as I have seen it work in primary and secondary.
I hope you get the support you are entitled to. Where abouts are you in Aus?
Another idea is to read the statement of special needs for Aus, I often tell parents to recite the special needs code of practice to pupil services to kick speech & lang up the a***!!! In my experience if you can name ie.
1:1 As part 3 of statement to provide blah blah..... page 10
this seems to scare them. Find anything that is legally binding. I am sorry if you have tried all of this, and keep trying xxx[/QUOTE]