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OK so I've opened my big mouth on these topics this morning.
I did 'A 'level sociology so am really big on this. (Didn't get me anywhere, though).

It's just occured to me; we've discussed snobbery, reverse snobbery; we're not sure what it really means - we all have different views as to whether Straya or UK is a better place to BE a snob/reverse snob , or NOT to be a snob/reverse snob.

Maybe; just maybe;
what we really want is the ability to be ourselves. at the end of the day, thats what we want.

I would say the beauty of Straya is that money, or no money, you can be what YOU want. An ocker or an improver, its up to you. Be what you want. (sounds like a trendy mobile phone advert) Good luck to you. But a business man can swear like an ocker etc. There is no pressure.

In the UK, everyone seems to be looking to improve materialistically to the same script. Even the poorest go out to Ikea, MFi to get the ensuite, new table, when they could get a packing crate instead. Everyone wants to be middle class. Apart from the middle classes; they want to be mockney cockneys along with the accent.

In Sydney, Straya I met young professional couples with old seats from airplanes as their furniture. I go into homes on "rough" housing estates in the UK and still find all the latest wide screen, 3 piece suite etc, wall to wall carpet etc.

My mate is a business manager and they have a covered pallet as their table - great stuff. At least they are not in debt.

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ohsohopeful

Well said that man
Here's to being real!

Jirrupin

I am and will be just what I want to be where ever I live.

I don't buy into this there is no class system here you can be just what you want to be. It wasn't long ago when I was advised on this forum that I would haveto start at the bottom of the employment ladder, I had to prove myslef here.

What on earth is that about if its not a system that divides the 'them' and 'us'.


Some people on this forum, and maybe I am one of them talk a lot of generalised rubbish.

If the cap fits......

Also for note I do not own any kind of dining table.

Whingin Pom

Do you not think its down to being comfortable, when your stuck in the house because its cold and wet. You go to work and your mate says look what I just got, image is king.

I have been trying to be me ever since i was a kid but have fell into the image trap, I want out.

My cousin in OZ lives how he wants to live and no body is going to stop him.

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[QUOTE}I don't buy into this there is no class system here you can be just what you want to be. It wasn't long ago when I was advised on this forum that I would haveto start at the bottom of the employment ladder, I had to prove myslef here.

What on earth is that about if its not a system that divides the 'them' and 'us'.{QUOTE}

My point was about attitudes to life, not about working practices.
Well if you're new, then maybe you haven't been tested then you do have to start at the bottom.

A 2nd lieutenent in the Army outranks all the soldiers but he is still told to get a grip by the ranks and has to earn respect. Even though he has the skills and quals to do the job. A new OC has to win respect.

Thats what I hated about middle management in general - they would say you've been in the army - used to taking orders etc, yet I always felt my most creative in the forces.

badge.

Simone

Good points.

A few things:

Yes it is about being yourself, and I also believe that in Australia it will be 'easier' to do that.
Here there aren't even second hand clothes shops and second hand books shops. Well, not like in Oz anyway!

I always generalise, but usually I say I do, when I do ???
I mean, if I don't then people are all over you with: we aren't like that etc bla bla! I know that, there's always exceptions! So that's when I usually mention that I don't really mean EVERYBODY, but sometimes I can't be bothered. But that's when it goes wrong, cos this is a forum.
So now I know why my posts are always soooooooo long: I want to explain what I mean properly, so that noone misunderstands.(impossible)

Oh, and 'class systems'. They're everywhere, but seem to be worse in UK as apposed to Holland and Oz.

Jirrupin

If there is a bottom there has to be a top! there is an attitude here that as a new immigrant you aren't accepted for what you are what experience and skills you have, is that not itself divisive.

A few weeks ago there was a young girl on the news who had been turned down for a job as a hairdresser because she was not pretty enough. So be warned all would be hairdressers out there

tennisoz

I studied 'class' in philosophy at University. That's a snob joke folks

Seriously, I've lived for a long time in both Oz and UK. I would just say that the UK is a little more class conscious than Oz but I would put this down largely to 1788 versus ?BC. I do not agree with some others who imply that Oz is almost classless because it isn't. Perhaps people just 'defer' to other things in Oz.

Incidentally, one thing that really gets up my nose (WBB help me!) is the reality TV programs. I don't watch them but you can't help but notice from the newspapers and news and my pupils at school that instant fame is what matters to a lot of people. (No offence to anyone who does this but spend money phoning up to vote someone off some program, I ask you) Perhaps in the UK people now defer less to 'breeding' and more to instant fame. How else can the Jordan's, Ulrika's, Tara's etc of this world get on so well?

Donk

sorry i just couldnt help myself as i believe there is no such thing as a classless society. Was that not Mr Blairs dream for the UK.

Much like the paperless society it will never happen.

Class

Class (klås), n. 1. A group of individuals ranked together as possessing common characteristics; as, the different classes of society; the educated class; the lower classes.

Herman

I'm sorry, but I do not share your view. My experience of Australians was that they are just a regular bunch of people exactly the same as anywhere else. They have the same wants and desires as people everywhere, the same instincts and the same behaviours. There are snobby ones, earthy ones, fat ones, thin ones, tall ones, short ones, mean ones, nice ones etc etc.... you get the message. All this stuff about Australians being this or Australians being that is, in my opinion, a load of ideological nonsense. They are just PEOPLE, with all the same baggage.

seang

I'm sorry, but I do not share your view. My experience of Australians was that they are just a regular bunch of people exactly the same as anywhere else. They have the same wants and desires as people everywhere, the same instincts and the same behaviours. There are snobby ones, earthy ones, fat ones, thin ones, tall ones, short ones, mean ones, nice ones etc etc.... you get the message. All this stuff about Australians being this or Australians being that is, in my opinion, a load of ideological nonsense. They are just PEOPLE, with all the same baggage.[QUOTE]

very well said
makes a difference i will admit to live in a nice climate bright skys etc but the wants/needs and actions of people are the same the world over.

Simone

Of course people are practically the same all over, but there's signifigant differences too, especially if you're generalising, like we're doing here!
Do people in the third world have the same wants as us?? A lot is the same of course, but for example: we want a house with garden, pool, 3 bedrooms etc, 'they' want a roof over their heads.
Big difference I think. Has got to do with Maslow I reckon.
Anybody agree or am I talking complete rubbish (I can do that)

I'm convinced that, overal, generally (etc) people in The Netherlands find a car as status symbol more important than the people in Australia!
And please remember I'm generalising, there's heaps of exceptions, but if you look at it with percentages, I'm quite sure there's a difference.
But it probably also have to do with maybe Holland being a very 'rich' country, and more people can afford new cars?

Oh, I don't know, this is getting confusing..........help

Badge

you're bang on the money Herman.

I said people should just be what they want to be. You get that everywhere. But we do seem to have a system that is negative over here and maybe suppresses people. Most of the world talks about, and refers to the class system in the UK as being somewhat strange. And I'm not necessarily a victim.

You say that Aussies are PEOPLE. Too right they are. I think assies have an x factor , which makes them universally popular.

In Straya, people seem happier striving to be who they want to be. I would also say that optimism levels seem higher over there. That's all. Most people would say that Australians have one of the most "positive" reputations in the world. I'd love to say to somone "I'm English", and have a person say "oh English - you guys are so friendly, laid back, sporty etc. I'd love to visit." There's a good reason for that "reputation".

When I was in my early 20s I worked on american summer camps and the young aussies there were streets ahead in confidence, character, friendliness, extrovertness, balance, started my love affair with aussies and their culture, and made me look at my own with a degree of sadness.

My ex aussie girlfriend always loved the way tourists "loved" her people and her country. She thought it great. And I want to be a part of it.

For me, for what I want in life, Australia can offer it.

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eh? I thought wanting a roof over your head was one of human being's wants ??!!! Shelter and all that.

And for those lucky enough to have that, we then want just "enough" space, within our means.

I want a 3 bed villa with a garden in Straya - that is all I can afford. I want it so that I can walk in to the garden without having to go down a flight of stairs, so that I can watch the sun go down with a beer with friends. (Dreamer alert) I don;t want to feel like a prisoner in my own home in a box. I want more than 1 bedroom so I can study in peace, and to have a spare room.

My fiancee and I don't want a pool - I hate swimming! ;-) I don't want a huge house with 5 bedrooms - I don't want that many kids for a start.

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bundy

Spot on Badge...it's all about being yourself wherever it is that you feel comfortable and able to do that. For me, that's a small town in the aussie bush where the emphasis is on earning respect through hard yakka and being a 'decent bloke/sheila'. And this is town is in a really low income area, as I've said before.

When I pitched up there, I was straight out of Cambridge University with a first class honours degree - something the uni people here told us would be a passport to anywhere. Say 'I went to Cambridge' to someone from Nundle and they'd say 'that's nice, I've been to Armidale'. I've never been naive (or arrogant) enough to assume that my education owes me anything, which, of course it doesn't...I had to earn respect in the town by working 15 hour physical shifts in hard conditions and joining in down the pub.

I guess my point is that I find some (not all) aussies admire 'better' qualities, such as hard work, honesty, loyalty, mates etc whereas all too many people here in the UK seem to judge you on purely materialistic grounds. To me, that's better. It's a generalisation, I know, and it's just an opinion.

And I lived in a house where we sat on tree stumps, made shelves out of milk crates, washed in bore water and had to collect firewood in order to cook or even have a cup of tea. I was as happy as larry and found it a huge relief that I could get away from everyday materialism and be myself for once