In a quandry
 

Hello everybody, go and make a cup of tea ,this is going to take awhile.
Thirty three years ago my husband and I took our two young children to live in Sydney Australia. The children were seven years old and nine years old. We lived there for 20 years and we all have citizenship.As a result of a number of circumstances out with our control my husband and I decided it was time to Return to Scotland ten years ago. It was a profoundly difficult decision as we were leaving a newly pregnant daughter( An event which took place just weeks before we were to fly out.House was sold flights paid for and goods shipped plus we had bought and paid for a little flat in Scotland.
Within a year of returning our gorgeous daughter her husband and a precious newborn grandchild arrived to live in Scotland with us and then a number of years later our son joined us. We have now been resident in Scotland for 10 years and my husband and I I've just purchased and renovated a beautiful retirement flat. Husband 70 years old I am 66 years old. My elderly parents have now both passed away and with my mothers passing my daughter finds herself even more homesick for Australia than she has been. I can well understand her feelings she is after all Australian. After much soul searching and many tears and her family have decided to return to Australia permanently they now have two young children.
A few weeks ago my darling daughter came to me and begged my husband and I to return to Australia with him. No here is the issue.
I find the idea of another massive up evil pretty overwhelming but I am prepared to go through it to keep her family together. My husband and I have considered spending six months in Australia living in my daughters granny flat and then six months in Scotland. However we would ultimately return permanently to Australia. I am struggling with the idea of whether or not just to make the final move permanently sooner rather than later while we are both young enough to re-establish ourselves in Australia once more. I would love to be able to talk this matter through with anyone who might have some insight into the ramifications of us situation. Our daughter has assured us that they will buy a property which allows my husband and I to live with them in a separate granny flat we have the UK pension and I believe we will be entitled to a part Australian pension. We have some assets but not a huge amount. Any thoughts from anyone would be appreciated. I love my daughter and her husband and children dearly and we have an excellent relationship with them .Thanks for listening

Re: In a quandry
 

Just checking ....... have you cleared the idea of living in the granny flat with the son in law?

Re: In a quandry
 

What about your son, is he moving too?

If you can do the 6/6 for the next decade that will give your daughter the chance to work out if she really does want to live in Australia again, then you might be in a position to decide if you want to live there and end your days there too. Does your daughter's OH have UK citizenship? He would be well advised to get that if he doesnt already have it.
You have to decide what is best for YOU - you've obviously put a lot of time and effort into your retirement place, you've probably got a good social network and you have free medical care, free dental care, subsidised care options etc, Families dont always stay together and if your daughter decides she wants to move away then that is her decision about her life. Whether you want to trek around the world after her is up to you - first one move then another then another if they move on and on - will you move on with them if that happens? Remember, 10 years ago you decided that your best interests were to move away and you left your daughter at that point, confident that she would be secure without you.

Your UK pension will be frozen at the date you move away. As to whether you will get any Aus pension rather depends on your income and assets at the time. You may get some help with prescriptions but they wont be free and you will likely have to copay for medical consultations and specialists if you ever need them. Will living in a granny flat impinge upon your independence? Do you have interests that will get you out into the community to make new connections?

My parents did the 6/6 thing for 15 years up to 81, had a granny flat on our block and were totally independent (their choice and ours!) they had interests which helped them make connections in the community but at the end of the day they decided to end up in UK and that was the best decision for them and they were much more comfortable financially and socially than if they had moved to Australia for their dotage.

I've just moved back to Australia after 8.5 years in UK caring for my parents until their deaths and at 70+ I am not finding it that easy to get back into a social group that I feel comfortable with (probably a Canberra thing!). I have "friends" from before I left and in the 10 months we have been back I have seen just two of them - probably Covid - but I have nothing in common with them any more. I have interests but they're not providing much by way of potential buddies. I am finding it quite a bit more expensive than I expected too - medical and dental have been a bit of an eyewatering shock with a couple of incidents.

At the end of the day though, it's your life, you make the decisions about what suits you. You are under no obligation to go back if you dont want to. If you want to then it's all peachy, just go for it.

Re: In a quandry
 

Thanks so much for your considered reply. Yes our adult son is returning to oz ASAP.I agree with everything you say and I suspect that certainly for the first few years we will spend the uk winter in oz and the April till sept in uk. such a lot to think about. Fortunately none of us have visa issues and my son in law is very happy to live near us .

Re: In a quandry
 

Slightly different circumstances but I lived between Borneo and UK for 10 years due to my husband’s work and our 3 children in UK, the youngest a daughter was only 13. I never really felt I belonged in either, always having to re establish myself. When my husband retired we had originally thought we would do 6 months in Australia and UK, but I decided somewhere had to be home, so we settled on Australia as home and went to UK on average 3 months a year. That has suited us. 2 of our children have since settled in Australia.
We were discussing this recently, we originally thought that even if our children had stayed in UK we would stay in Australia for ever. However now that we are in our late 70’s we wonder if we would have made a different decision had we been here with no family, and might have thought it was more sensible to return to UK? Friends are wonderful but the truth is that sadly we are loosing too many, so I have to be honest, after years of being very self sufficient we do feel reassured having family close.
I am the first one to say you shouldn’t follow your children, we certainly didn’t, but I love being near them, but don’t want to live with them yet, value our independence.
Not an easy decision for you, wish you well with what you decide suits your circumstances best.

Re: In a quandry
 

Thank you very much for the input I appreciate it. I guess my main question is should we return to Australia permanently with our adult children and grandchildren at a time when we are still young enough to benefit and make the adjustment well. Interestingly this pandemic has made me very aware that being able to FaceTime Friends on the phone or computer compensates very nicely for not actually being in their company. At least we are living in a time when it will be easy to maintain good communication. Our daughter has suggested that her and her husband purchase a property which will allow for the building of a granny flat or a house which already has one and that my husband and I will be on the title deeds of the property. We would also contribute the actual cost of the granny flat. Somehow I can't imagine not seeing my granddaughtersor my daughter easily and regularly. It's quite a difficult decision to make but at least we have some time to ponder it and at the end of the day we can see how we feel when the time comes.

Re: In a quandry
 

I'm sorry you're going through this, not an easy task.

A question.. are you happy in Scotland?

As much as I understand how hard it is being away from your daughter, SIL and grand child (we are the 'kids' with grandchild away from the grandparent in our story) I do think you should live your own lives to a point. What do you truly want to do? As you know, moving abroad again is not just jumping on a plane. It's huge, massive and it's effects are pretty long-lasting.... let alone the cost. That aside, if you truly can't picture your lives apart then you do need to sit down, take all points Quoll has said above and work out if this is feasible. Even though it's your daughter, do you actually want to be living out your days in a granny flat on someone else's property in an area that you may or may not agree with or in your own "beautiful retirement flat" in your chosen area? Why are they so keen to have you in a granny flat? Will you be doing a lot of babysitting?

I'm probably going to be shot down here and I don't mean to offend, but I do think it is unfair your daughter is begging and putting so much pressure on you to move, something that is clearly causing you sleepless nights. How old is your daughter? does she have friends in Sydney? Did you beg her and her family to move to Scotland? I completely emphasise with your daughter about being away from family with a young baby/child - exactly my situation - and it's not easy - but we didn't beg anyone to move with us, it was our decision and we understood this was our life and what we wanted to do. You say you want to do this to keep your family together - but you're not the one pulling it apart, so why should you have to find the solution?

I think perhaps spending time in Australia whilst keeping your place etc. in Scotland would be a good start. You don't need to make a hard set in stone decision right now on your future. 66 is still young! Why not initially try the visitor visa and make a decision after that? We don't know what things will look like once the world moves to a post-pandemic stage but lets say the opportunity of obtaining a visitor visa (3 months) is still available I would initially try that before moving lock, stock and barrel. It's not completely unfeasible to think that your daughter might, after a period, start to pine for Scotland... or want to move somewhere else. And then what? What about your son, what if he settles and has a child but wants to move somewhere else?

I think you really really need to think about what you and hour husband really want out of life, and I wish you the best.

Re: In a quandry
 

Thank you very much for your carefully thought out input. I agree with everything you say As it happens. Fortunately we do not have the problem of visas as we all have Australian citizenship. Our granddaughters are beyond infancy ,we have done most of the babysitting here in Scotland. Our daughter is genuinely concerned at the idea of myself and her father being frail and alone in Scotland as we get older although hopefully that is some way off yet . I think that when the time comes we will have a clear idea of what to do as it happens it won't be for another three years and a lot can change in that time. Time will tell.

Re: In a quandry
 

No worries. Just thought I would check. I have a few mates with wife and kids, where the MIL spends a lot of time at their place. They put on a happy face and say all the right things for the sake of the wife, but get them out for a beer and they rip. It's not easy having the inlaws constantly around.

Re: In a quandry
 

I would do no more than pass perhaps in summer in Australia to escape that Scottish winter. From past experience of people we know, I would be very hesitant indeed to not only follow kids, but live as you describe. I assume you are very comfortable where you are at the moment. You have The NHS would shouldn't be sneezed at, Britain has so many more diverse options to travel within in the age .As well as having Europe so close. Australia has changed over the years. (Very expensive now, for one thing) Mostly not for the better .I'd give it very serious consideration as to what is best for you. The warmer weather may help with some ailments. In my case, although like the cold, I find have a fairly constant knee pain which dissipated in warm weather completely. Still not enough to prevent a very serious consideration of retuning to either Europe or UK in the coming few years. Another feeling of mine, is regardless of family, Australia can be a somewhat lonely place in the age to really connect with people or at least those with similar interests.

Re: In a quandry
 

Well, if your daughter is concerned about you being frail and alone, she can always move back to look after you!
Having done just exactly that for my parents, I am determined that our planning will ensure that my sons never have to do that for us. We wont be as stubborn as my folk about "staying in my home until they carry me out in a box" that's for damned certain! Mind you, my parents never asked us to uproot for them, they were fiercely independent until the end but we could see that it wasnt going to be a happy ending, the way they were. Had they been in a retirement complex or been prepared to move into sheltered accommodation I would have been much happier and would happily have left them doing their own thing but they wouldn't do that. Dad did eventually choose to go into a care home and I think he wondered why the hell he hadn't done it years before. For us, living with the parents/inlaws was a challenge and even though we did it with good grace it was lovely to get back to our own place (only to find we now have a son living in our granny flat - sheesh!) - granny flats are fine but they can become a bit of an imposition!!!!

I do agree totally with Still Game - it is as unfair for your daughter to be pulling the emotional blackmail card on you as it is when we see, time and again, parents pulling the same card when their kids want to emigrate! Everyone comes down heavy on the selfish parents in that case but your daughter is doing just the same thing and the response should be the same, emotional blackmail is not ok. If she wants to head off then that's her life to live but you get the final say in how your retirement is going to look!

I agree with The Troubadour too - reconnecting in Aus in old age (perhaps unless you are in a retirement complex where everyone else is on the same page) is not easy and it is easy to become isolated.

Re: In a quandry
 

I always recall a couple from UK (acquittances of a family member) that did similar on daughters request, but sold their house in The Home Counties , which later found out when things went bad, (breakdown of relationship with daughter) that most the money had gone towards paying of the mortgage of daughter and son in law, (luxurious house by the way) Not something I would usually repeat as most would rightly or wrongly state that their position and/or relationship is different. That may or may not be the case. All I know is that over time things can go very pear shaped. Luckily the couple involved had additional means through private pension not to be homeless , but they only were able to rent and well to say it left a very sour taste would be something of an understatement. The only lesson that I feel can be learnt is to maintain own independence and in control of own finances for as long as possible. But moving on, I would as first mentioned. Stay a few winters in Sydney as come with fully open eyes to environment, as to if that is the place you really want to end up?
Another thing an English friend mentioned just the other day how people are far more involved with hobbies in UK. No matter how obscure one can usually find a niche to fulfill own interests. I'd tend to agree with that. Also people somehow tend to 'talk' more. In the way of conversation without the long gaps or being overwhelmed with words. (latter my take) All things to be considered or at least looked at if worthy of consideration.

Re: In a quandry
 

To be honest the whole situation has left me feeling sick at heart. I dread the idea of returning to Australia as it was not an easy life and it was very lonely. But equally I hate the idea of being physically separated from my daughter and her family and my adult son. The whole situation has left me questioning a lifetime of decisions I can see me heading for a counsellor LOL

Re: In a quandry
 

if it were me I would stay in my "beautiful retirement flat" and see how you and your partner feel in a few years time your young enough to do that..you may find a wonderful full life doing what you both enjoy, you could visit your daughter and have extended stays in Australia, your daughter could either love Australia and make a great lifestyle for her family or they may decided after a while it's not for them and could return but you have your life to live and so does your daughter....maybe in years to come (if your daughter does stay in Australia.) you then might decide to join her but then that would be of your own free will. I am sorry to have to say this but I personally do not think ......and I may have this wrong and sorry if I am but.... it's not very nice of your daughter to be putting pressure on you to return with her...all the very best to you x

Re: In a quandry
 

If that is really how you feel - DONT GO!!!!! Go for holidays and have chunks of quality time but retain your own place and sense of identity.
A counsellor might be a good idea but I think you need to make it clear to your kids that you wont be bullied into making a decision that you dont really want to make and that they can go, you will visit and that will be it.