miss brodie

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wilf
This is exactly what Nz deserves and a taste of its own medicine.

Kiwis use the UK as a cashpoint and doss off place on their famous "OEs", where places like my old home of London is good enough for earning money to get deposits for houses or pay off student loans but "Oh no, I would never stay there and bring my kids up there, it is too horrid" say the pathetic kiwis. They are bloody hypocrites. Your prime ministress Helen Clark was recently poncing her way round Europe arranging better visa rights for kiwis in Europe but NZ is an extremely small minded place that hates to employ foreigners and would never choose a foreigner (however well qualified) if there is a local (even if less well qualified) person to be found. NZ (and to a much lesser extent Oz) is a hypocritical place that sponges off other places (e.g., exporting their graduates because they have no careers for them - often to Oz) and then hates to be asked for a favour or two back.


Wilf,

What is the problem? You don't even live here in NZ. I have seen no problem with 'foreigners' getting jobs here and have been treated with nothing but positivity. I have also seen lots of other immigrants of all colours and creeds treated very well but young and old New Zealanders. Young New Zealanders are ever keen to see the world beyond NZ and so are keen to live elsewhere for a while - and there is nothing wrong with that. And if you don't like Kiwis, don't hang around with them. Perhaps you should try and channel your energies into doing something a little more positive.

Wilf

[QUOTE]Originally posted by miss brodie

What does it matter where I live? My point regards hypocrisy of the kiwis in that they are not keen for NZ to be used as a gateway to OZ because they do not want "transient" behaviours in their own land, but the kiwis do it in MY old home of London where they do not mind working and earning but do not consider it good enough to live in and make a permanent life. The whole point is that I do not dislike kiwis - I want them to settle permanently in London if that is where they want to work and that way they will put more into it than they do at the moment. The NZ govt wants permanent residents to NZ with all the ensuing advantages for stable society but do not care what is the behaviour of their own overseas - using up London and then spitting it out. I expect you will misinterpret me again.

The kiwis are self-serving hypocrites with their behaviour. That is my point.

Don

Actually we have already started our permanent residency (March 2003)!

There is a big difference between some people on the forum (I don't mean you JWW but the point came up before) who get very het up when some people don't profess their love of NZ before landing and firm intention of staying there evermore vs those who don't plan ahead these things more than a few years.

We see our initial time in NZ as a 3 year 'contract', ending (hopefully) with NZ passports. 3 years is long enough to really decide if we want to stay there longer. If the answer is 'no', we will consider our options, and having the option to live & work in Aus is definitely attractive.

We haven't, as such, already decided to get our NZ passports and take the next plane to Aus. Far from it, we must take our children's interests very much into consideration and I am sure already that NZ can offer absolutely excellent schooling and 'growing-up' environment for children.

A lot will naturally depend on whether we establish a successful business or find appropriate jobs.

deedee

Wilf,you sad fake impersonating bastard,i have just found out some imformation!You pretend to be old and wise...hahahaha,you bullshiter,i have respect for the older generation and i wondered where you were coming from as an older person....now i know,what a life you must lead.....you are a quite simply a nob head,young man.

Akaubear

Ditto! (Along with many other people I'd imagine...)

As an aside - do you (/anyone) know whether the "3 years" starts from the First time you arrived in NZ with PR, or when you actually arrived to live??

Long story... but we came over in September last year - just for a holiday, but actually came to live here in January of this year. We reckon we can apply for a Permanent RRV (or whatever it's called) in September next year - but will probably have to wait until Jan 2006 (or 2008 :scared: if the rumours are true) before applying for citizenship.

Anyone any ideas??

Thanks!
Nicola.

JWW

It was not supposed to be a comment on your personel circumstances Don, although looking back through the posts it could appear that way. More an example of something that does appear to be an issue with the Aussies and could impair the rights of current NZ citizens going forward. Why else would they push out citizenship elegibility to 5 years?

I actually agree with Wilf to a certain extent, but I think he is directing his venom at the wrong country. The UK doesn't mind who comes in and out within reason, and neither do NZ to be honest. Its OZ that are creating the problems and putting presure on the NZ government.

Uk citizens can come to NZ without a visa and NZ citizens likewise to the UK. UK citizens to OZ, visa please. OZ to UK, no visa. OZ to NZ, no worries...NZ to OZ, lets make it increasingly difficult and make like were doing them a big favour.

Of course you will do what suits you and your family, NZ is not a box of chocolates and does not suit everyone. If I was offered a good career move in OZ, I might well take it. I guess the bottom line is intent.

Cheers.

Don

Britboy is a bit of an expert here - maybe he can explain about citizenship?

For starters:

8. Citizenship by grant---(1) The Minister may authorise the grant of
New Zealand citizenship to any person (notwithstanding that he may be a
New Zealand citizen by descent) who has attained the age of 18 years and
is of full capacity and who applies for it in the prescribed manner, and
satisfies the Minister that he meets each of the requirements specified
in subsection (2) of this section.

(2) The requirements referred to in subsection (1) of this section
are:
(a) That the applicant was, throughout the period of 3 years
immediately preceding the date of his application, ordinarily
resident in New Zealand:
[(b) That the applicant is entitled, in terms of the Immigration Act
1987, to be in New Zealand indefinitely:]
(c) That the applicant is of good character:
(d) That the applicant has sufficient knowledge of the
responsibilities and privileges attaching to New Zealand
citizenship:
(e) That the applicant has sufficient knowledge of the English
language:
(f) That the applicant intends, if he is granted New Zealand
citizenship, either---
[(i) To continue to be ordinarily resident in New Zealand; or]
(ii) To enter into or continue in Crown service under the New
Zealand Government, or service under an international
organisation of which the New Zealand Government is a member, or
service in the employment of a person, company, society, or
other body of persons resident or established in New Zealand.

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (a) of subsection (2) of this
section, the Minister may deem the applicant to have been residing in
New Zealand during any period of Crown service under the New Zealand
Government served by the applicant within the period of 3 years
immediately preceding the date of his application.

(4) Notwithstanding the said paragraph (a) of subsection (2) of this
section, if the Minister is satisfied in a particular case that, because
of the applicant's age or for any other reason personal to the
applicant, the applicant would suffer undue hardship if he were required
to be ordinarily resident in New Zealand for the whole of the period of
3 years specified in that paragraph, the Minister may accept such
residence by the applicant for such shorter period (not being less than
12 months) as he thinks fit as being sufficient compliance by the
applicant with the requirement of that paragraph.

(5) Notwithstanding paragraph (e) of subsection (2) of this section,
if the Minister is satisfied in a particular case that, because of the
applicant's age or standard of education, or for any other reason
personal to the applicant, the applicant would suffer undue hardship if
compliance with the requirement of that paragraph were insisted upon,
the Minister may waive that requirement.

http://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/...se/004se8.html

JWW

What have you found out?

ptlabs

Nicola,

It's called an Indefinite RRV.

The countdown to NZ citizenship, if I'm not wrong, starts when you become usually resident in NZ. You qualify for NZ citizenship once the stipulated 'usual' residency period has been obtained and you have permanent residence at the time of application for NZ citizenship.

Peter

Don

I think that's right - ie 'ordinarily resident' usually means spending 184 days or more each year in NZ (for 3 years to qualify for passport).

Whilst we are not in NZ right now, we're hoping to qualify for being ordinarily resident in NZ this year and next (ie we plan to spend a minimum of 184 days in NZ in the year since landing there in March 2003 and the same the following year. (We considerthe clock started ticking the day we arrived in NZ.) This should qualify us for IRRV.

Then if we repeat the 184 days requirement in the third and consecutive year, we hope to qualify for citizenship.

Ordinarily resident does not necessarily mean tax resident.

southerner

Wilf,

Some kiwis (I admit not a great proportion) do stay in London permanently.

I hope you are not begrudging kiwis their big OE. How else are they to lose their insularity and all their other faults you speak of, without going overseas. Surely it is better they visit and live in a country like the UK, than the alternative "all to similar" Australia?

Many English, Welsh, Scottish and European people also come to London for career purposes. They have much the same view as many kiwis: great experience, great money, great city, but they also have no intention of staying. Many that do stay are bitter that they are trapped in the "career to pay mortgage" thing, and these are the pool from which many Oz/NZ immigrants come.

I wish I could show you some cuttings from the NZ Expat newspapers here in London. There are always slagging matches there in the letters section between a) the kiwis you refered to who constantly whinge about life in London, and b) the rest who love London, are living for the moment, and suggest to the whingers to "**** off" back home if you hate it so much.

So in conclusion, I think kiwis are a bit more self aware than you make out, and are probably no worse than many other nationalities.

However, you do raise some good questions (again) about NZ's future role in the world. Are we to be just exporters of educated talent, with the 30 somethings returning to breed the next generation of exports, or can the country achieve something much more?

Akaubear

Thanks Don & Peter (indefinite - that's the word... )

This is what we're hoping too. I shall post in Sept. 2005 & let you know how it goes! Course, if it changes to 5 years that'll change things. But at least we should have our IRRV by then...

Nicola.

ptlabs

Hi Nicola,

Hope it goes well for you. Remember that rules for IRRV may change any time. I've always said that the best way to ensure real permanent residency and re-entry is citizenship.

A good case of a re-definition of the "indefinite-ness" of a visa is the US non-immigrant visas (visitor visas). Old-style "indefinite" US non-immigrant visas were re-defined as 10-year visas.

Peter

BritboyNZ

Don,

Its a bit different for Citizenship - Internal Affairs do indeed use the term 'ordinarily resident' as a requirement for a grant of NZ citizenship, however they also stipulate that during the 3yr period, you must spend not more than 1 year in total outside of NZ, and no trip must be longer than 6 months in total. Therefore just residing in NZ for 3 lots of 184 days over a 3 year period won't qualify you for citizenship.

There is also a requirement that if you traveled overseas, you 'did not enter into a settled lifestyle'. So if you spend the absolute minimum to qualify for citizenship (for example, spend a year outside of NZ) and then apply as soon as you were eligible, DIA could well argue that you were in a settled lifestyle overseas, even more so if you were not employed continuously by a NZ employer (the application form asks you to list All of your employers, for the previous 10 years). A further requirement is that you 'intend to continue living in NZ' so again, a person doing the absolute minimum to qualify for citizenship and submitting an application as soon as he/she was eligible would almost certainly raise red flags at DIA who would I imagine decline the application.

In reply to Akuabear/Nicola, the citizenship 'clock' starts from when you arrive in NZ (even as a visitor). As long as you remain in NZ on a valid permit at all times, and obtain NZ PR before the 3yr period is up (and meet the ordinarily resident/character/intention requirements), then on the basis of the present rules you would be eligible for NZ cit. on the 3rd anniversary of when you arrived.

IMO the citizenship requirements for NZ are already quite high - much higher than required by Australia for example. It's blatently obvious that the Oz government is putting pressure on the NZ govt who will almost certainly oblige as the number of NZ'ers in Australia exceeds by far the number of ozzies in NZ. The last thing the NZ govt wants is for australia to rip up the trans tasman arrangement as it would cause untold difficulty for NZ citizens already in oz (not to mention the harm it would to to exports). Seems that the Aus government wants to reduce the numbers of kiwis in oz, and can quite convieniently get the NZ govt to do it for them.

It is also a fallacy (though it seems to be the unanimous opinion of all ozzies) that NZ'ers simply go over to Australia to claim benefits - 10 or 15yrs ago quite possibly, but not today. The changes the oz government made in Feb 2001 put an end to that and I remember reading a study conducted by an aus govt agency (might have been DIMIA, not sure) that found that the vast majority of NZ'ers in Australia were in employment & contributing to the oz economy. Made interesting reading & blows out of the water the belief that NZ'ers are in oz for handouts. I'll try and find a link to it & post it here.

Russ

Akaubear

Really that's why we'd prefer citizenship. I'd hate to leave here (for whatever reason) & not be able to come back easily.

I didn't know that about the "indefinite" US visas. I guess that means the one I got in 1991 is no use anymore! (Not that it makes much difference to me....)

Russ/BritboyNZ - thanks for the info!

Nicola.