Move on to Change Australia Day
Jan 31st 2018, 10:00 pm
#91
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 6,775
Re: Move on to Change Australia Day
Always is a long time. Australia years ago, everything and on the other hand, nothing was offensive. It used to be if you haven't been insulted by an Australian, then you just haven't been insulted at all......never heard the term?
Jan 31st 2018, 10:30 pm
#92
Yo
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,474
Re: Move on to Change Australia Day
[QUOTE=the troubadour;12431990]Happy days on arriving at almost mutual understanding. It can't be easy living off shore Europe pre cast off day not too far ahead. Although another vote may well secure the anchor.
QUOTE]
Not easy at all. Hoping public mood will shift sufficiently for the political class to save us from ourselves.
QUOTE]
Not easy at all. Hoping public mood will shift sufficiently for the political class to save us from ourselves.
Jan 31st 2018, 10:59 pm
#93
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2008
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Re: Move on to Change Australia Day
[QUOTE=Shard;12432022]
I can fully agree with that. Hope enough in Britain come to the realisation that there place is in Europe as a European nation and not as some historic relic and that too many believed the outright lies that were told, by those , never with the expectation of winning. Very sad day. Both for the out right bias that has too often surfaced against EU residents living in that country as well as the conflicting messages displayed by politicians and the rubbish sprouted by too much of the tabloid press owned from abroad.
Getting away from the original thread so back to that. The process of addressing disadvantage with in the Indigenous will I believe need to come from within. Enough of their own people tackle the issues at hand, like Ernie Dingo for example. There are a growing number becoming aware and trying to make a difference. No quick fixes but at least the makings of a pathway.
Happy days on arriving at almost mutual understanding. It can't be easy living off shore Europe pre cast off day not too far ahead. Although another vote may well secure the anchor.
QUOTE]
Not easy at all. Hoping public mood will shift sufficiently for the political class to save us from ourselves.
QUOTE]
Not easy at all. Hoping public mood will shift sufficiently for the political class to save us from ourselves.
I can fully agree with that. Hope enough in Britain come to the realisation that there place is in Europe as a European nation and not as some historic relic and that too many believed the outright lies that were told, by those , never with the expectation of winning. Very sad day. Both for the out right bias that has too often surfaced against EU residents living in that country as well as the conflicting messages displayed by politicians and the rubbish sprouted by too much of the tabloid press owned from abroad.
Getting away from the original thread so back to that. The process of addressing disadvantage with in the Indigenous will I believe need to come from within. Enough of their own people tackle the issues at hand, like Ernie Dingo for example. There are a growing number becoming aware and trying to make a difference. No quick fixes but at least the makings of a pathway.
Jan 31st 2018, 11:11 pm
#94
Yo
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,474
Re: Move on to Change Australia Day
[QUOTE=the troubadour;12432043]
I can fully agree with that. Hope enough in Britain come to the realisation that there place is in Europe as a European nation and not as some historic relic and that too many believed the outright lies that were told, by those , never with the expectation of winning. Very sad day. Both for the out right bias that has too often surfaced against EU residents living in that country as well as the conflicting messages displayed by politicians and the rubbish sprouted by too much of the tabloid press owned from abroad.
Getting away from the original thread so back to that. The process of addressing disadvantage with in the Indigenous will I believe need to come from within. Enough of their own people tackle the issues at hand, like Ernie Dingo for example. There are a growing number becoming aware and trying to make a difference. No quick fixes but at least the makings of a pathway.
Unfortunately the referendum has been a bit of a Pandora's Box, and if anything it has legitimised many of the false and whacky concerns in the Brexit camp. I think it will take at least a generation for divisions to settle, whatever the outcome. If you're interested Brexit in the topic there's a raging thread in 'Take It Outside' with now over 28,000 posts! Mostly Remainers, but there are a few Brexiters winding the rest of us up.
As for the aborigines, I know so little about them, despite an interest in anthropolgy. I'm a bit more clued up on the indigenous people of Canada, and the issue they face. Probably quite a bit of overlap.
I can fully agree with that. Hope enough in Britain come to the realisation that there place is in Europe as a European nation and not as some historic relic and that too many believed the outright lies that were told, by those , never with the expectation of winning. Very sad day. Both for the out right bias that has too often surfaced against EU residents living in that country as well as the conflicting messages displayed by politicians and the rubbish sprouted by too much of the tabloid press owned from abroad.
Getting away from the original thread so back to that. The process of addressing disadvantage with in the Indigenous will I believe need to come from within. Enough of their own people tackle the issues at hand, like Ernie Dingo for example. There are a growing number becoming aware and trying to make a difference. No quick fixes but at least the makings of a pathway.
Unfortunately the referendum has been a bit of a Pandora's Box, and if anything it has legitimised many of the false and whacky concerns in the Brexit camp. I think it will take at least a generation for divisions to settle, whatever the outcome. If you're interested Brexit in the topic there's a raging thread in 'Take It Outside' with now over 28,000 posts! Mostly Remainers, but there are a few Brexiters winding the rest of us up.
As for the aborigines, I know so little about them, despite an interest in anthropolgy. I'm a bit more clued up on the indigenous people of Canada, and the issue they face. Probably quite a bit of overlap.
Jan 31st 2018, 11:57 pm
#95
Last resort... format c:/
Joined: Mar 2012
Location: Singapore to Surfers Paradise to... Tenerife... to Gran Canaria!
Posts: 1,626
Re: Move on to Change Australia Day
As would native inhabitants of territories now known as the United States, Canada or any other place on Earth.I don't believe that any individual or group in Australia has a greater right than anyone else when it comes to calling the continent their home. Australia belongs to everyone.
Now some people might not like history - or they might feel disenfranchised by modern age economics - but all this invasion day banter is just ludicrous.
Feb 1st 2018, 12:05 am
#96
Crazy Cat Lady
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 65,493
Re: Move on to Change Australia Day
I have no issue with changing the date, it doesn't affect me in the least but surely those that are campaigning for such a change should have a definite date in mind to change it to? I haven't heard of one - other than random dates bandied about. Wouldn't it strengthen their case if they had a date and a reason for that date?
Feb 1st 2018, 11:00 am
#98
Last resort... format c:/
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Re: Move on to Change Australia Day
Right now it seems there is no ultimate goal or final objective but just pointless and endless banter intertwined with some baffling sense of hate towards the very country they are part of. They are part of Australia but some believe that the country should just be about them and everything else doesn't belong.
But Australia is not an Aboriginal country just like the US is not all about native Americans. Even something symbolic like changing the flag to an Aboriginal one seems just as silly as changing the US flag to a picture of a totem pole.
Feb 1st 2018, 1:28 pm
#99
Concierge
Joined: Jan 2013
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 21,138
Re: Move on to Change Australia Day
IMO Australia has given its original inhabitants so much compared to the situation they would be in had Europeans never discovered and settled this continent. They should be thinking "gratitude," not "rage."
Today they are part of a safe and prosperous country with good infrastructure, proper healthcare, highest base wage in the world, etc., etc., etc. In fact desperate people from many surrounding countries are willing to get on some lousy excuse for a boat and risk their lives just to set foot here.
Taking this for granted is bad enough. But openly hating the country simply because they are part of it - when what they desire is for it to be wholly and totally just about (and for) them - is wrong on so many levels.
Like I said, more gratitude, less anger...
Today they are part of a safe and prosperous country with good infrastructure, proper healthcare, highest base wage in the world, etc., etc., etc. In fact desperate people from many surrounding countries are willing to get on some lousy excuse for a boat and risk their lives just to set foot here.
Taking this for granted is bad enough. But openly hating the country simply because they are part of it - when what they desire is for it to be wholly and totally just about (and for) them - is wrong on so many levels.
Like I said, more gratitude, less anger...
A little story for you. While at primary school in the mid-60s, I became friends with a boy named Ronnie. Ronnie lived in a group of cottages next door to the school. The cottages were owned and run by the Department of Native Welfare, a Western Australian government department, when Ronnie arrive there, and were later sold to the Uniting Church. White Christian families were allowed to take the kids home for weekends. My mum often collected Ronnie and brought him home to our place, where he'd eat and eat and sleep and sleep, and be a cheeky and funny little coot in between. We stayed friends until we were 15.
Ronnie was taken from his parents when he was 5 years old. He wasn't taken because he was neglected or abused. He wasn't taken because he didn't have family who loved him - as well as mum and dad he had brothers, sisters, aunties and uncles, cousins. Ronnie was forcibly removed from his family because his skin was lighter than that of his siblings. He was taken because the State thought he should learn how to act like a white person.
Ronnie's parents weren't permitted to visit him. For years his mum wrote letters to the Department's Commissioner pleading to be allowed to see her son. Some of those letters, and the Commissioner's responses, still exist. She was consistently refused any access at all to her son.
I'm not going to go into the history of the stolen generation, if anyone's genuinely interested there's plenty of factual information available. Around 10 years ago the Uniting Church issued a statement, saying it 'unreservedly apologised to children in its institutions who experienced neglect of their social, emotional and physical needs, or physical or sexual abuse perpetrated by staff who should have been trustworthy'.
Many of those who worked with Aboriginal children at that time did so with good intentions, they were following the State, Commonwealth and society in general's belief that a 'white' upbringing was always going to be better than an 'Aboriginal' one. I get that. Most Aboriginal people I've been friends with and worked with get that.
But don't you dare say that 'they should be grateful'. I'd actually like to share your thoughts with Ronnie, we'd hopefully be able to have a good laugh about it. I can't tell Ronnie that he should be grateful though, because when he was 15 years old he hung himself.
Feb 1st 2018, 7:23 pm
#100
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: Move on to Change Australia Day
I wish you'd stop saying 'they'. Australian Aboriginal people aren't a homogeneous group who all think the same.
A little story for you. While at primary school in the mid-60s, I became friends with a boy named Ronnie. Ronnie lived in a group of cottages next door to the school. The cottages were owned and run by the Department of Native Welfare, a Western Australian government department, when Ronnie arrive there, and were later sold to the Uniting Church. White Christian families were allowed to take the kids home for weekends. My mum often collected Ronnie and brought him home to our place, where he'd eat and eat and sleep and sleep, and be a cheeky and funny little coot in between. We stayed friends until we were 15.
Ronnie was taken from his parents when he was 5 years old. He wasn't taken because he was neglected or abused. He wasn't taken because he didn't have family who loved him - as well as mum and dad he had brothers, sisters, aunties and uncles, cousins. Ronnie was forcibly removed from his family because his skin was lighter than that of his siblings. He was taken because the State thought he should learn how to act like a white person.
Ronnie's parents weren't permitted to visit him. For years his mum wrote letters to the Department's Commissioner pleading to be allowed to see her son. Some of those letters, and the Commissioner's responses, still exist. She was consistently refused any access at all to her son.
I'm not going to go into the history of the stolen generation, if anyone's genuinely interested there's plenty of factual information available. Around 10 years ago the Uniting Church issued a statement, saying it 'unreservedly apologised to children in its institutions who experienced neglect of their social, emotional and physical needs, or physical or sexual abuse perpetrated by staff who should have been trustworthy'.
Many of those who worked with Aboriginal children at that time did so with good intentions, they were following the State, Commonwealth and society in general's belief that a 'white' upbringing was always going to be better than an 'Aboriginal' one. I get that. Most Aboriginal people I've been friends with and worked with get that.
But don't you dare say that 'they should be grateful'. I'd actually like to share your thoughts with Ronnie, we'd hopefully be able to have a good laugh about it. I can't tell Ronnie that he should be grateful though, because when he was 15 years old he hung himself.
A little story for you. While at primary school in the mid-60s, I became friends with a boy named Ronnie. Ronnie lived in a group of cottages next door to the school. The cottages were owned and run by the Department of Native Welfare, a Western Australian government department, when Ronnie arrive there, and were later sold to the Uniting Church. White Christian families were allowed to take the kids home for weekends. My mum often collected Ronnie and brought him home to our place, where he'd eat and eat and sleep and sleep, and be a cheeky and funny little coot in between. We stayed friends until we were 15.
Ronnie was taken from his parents when he was 5 years old. He wasn't taken because he was neglected or abused. He wasn't taken because he didn't have family who loved him - as well as mum and dad he had brothers, sisters, aunties and uncles, cousins. Ronnie was forcibly removed from his family because his skin was lighter than that of his siblings. He was taken because the State thought he should learn how to act like a white person.
Ronnie's parents weren't permitted to visit him. For years his mum wrote letters to the Department's Commissioner pleading to be allowed to see her son. Some of those letters, and the Commissioner's responses, still exist. She was consistently refused any access at all to her son.
I'm not going to go into the history of the stolen generation, if anyone's genuinely interested there's plenty of factual information available. Around 10 years ago the Uniting Church issued a statement, saying it 'unreservedly apologised to children in its institutions who experienced neglect of their social, emotional and physical needs, or physical or sexual abuse perpetrated by staff who should have been trustworthy'.
Many of those who worked with Aboriginal children at that time did so with good intentions, they were following the State, Commonwealth and society in general's belief that a 'white' upbringing was always going to be better than an 'Aboriginal' one. I get that. Most Aboriginal people I've been friends with and worked with get that.
But don't you dare say that 'they should be grateful'. I'd actually like to share your thoughts with Ronnie, we'd hopefully be able to have a good laugh about it. I can't tell Ronnie that he should be grateful though, because when he was 15 years old he hung himself.
IMO Australia has given its original inhabitants so much compared to the situation they would be in had Europeans never discovered and settled this continent. They should be thinking "gratitude," not "rage."
He then goes on to talk about health care etc which are one of the many benefits of colonization.
On the flipside there were incidents which may not have been savoury like the stolen generation or even the 1788 colonization.
Where is Ronnie today? Whilst taking Ronnie from his family is sad, Ronnie may have had benefits and opportunity elsewhere stemming from his new family.
At the end of the day, all the giving has been done to make amends for past doings. There's been apologies, there's been trillions of dollars thrown at it. Changing the date will be another useless attempt at unification with good intentions but will still breed separation. In fact it will probably enhance it.
Time to put the foot down and move on.
Feb 1st 2018, 10:05 pm
#101
Frequent Flyer Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 10,994
Did you get bored before you made it to end of Scouse's post??
Feb 1st 2018, 11:05 pm
#102
Last resort... format c:/
Joined: Mar 2012
Location: Singapore to Surfers Paradise to... Tenerife... to Gran Canaria!
Posts: 1,626
Re: Move on to Change Australia Day
I agree that there have been some dark and shameful points in history. But at the end of the day I would expect the average person today, Aborigines included, to look at Australia and see a country that has come a long way in becoming one of the most advanced and developed nations on the planet.
So yes, I think that being grateful for how history has allowed for Australia to be discovered and developed over the years to become what it is today - even though the road has not always been fair or easy - is a more adequate feeling than pure and utter rage emanating from some of those livid protesters, most of whom I assume haven't had much bad happen to them due to the country's fault but simply want to vent anger at someone or something.
So yes, I think that being grateful for how history has allowed for Australia to be discovered and developed over the years to become what it is today - even though the road has not always been fair or easy - is a more adequate feeling than pure and utter rage emanating from some of those livid protesters, most of whom I assume haven't had much bad happen to them due to the country's fault but simply want to vent anger at someone or something.
Feb 1st 2018, 11:38 pm
#104
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 6,775
Re: Move on to Change Australia Day
[QUOTE=Shard;12432048]
Unfortunately the referendum has been a bit of a Pandora's Box, and if anything it has legitimised many of the false and whacky concerns in the Brexit camp. I think it will take at least a generation for divisions to settle, whatever the outcome. If you're interested Brexit in the topic there's a raging thread in 'Take It Outside' with now over 28,000 posts! Mostly Remainers, but there are a few Brexiters winding the rest of us up.
As for the aborigines, I know so little about them, despite an interest in anthropolgy. I'm a bit more clued up on the indigenous people of Canada, and the issue they face. Probably quite a bit of overlap.
Not personal experience, but I have heard the social issues involving First Nations in Canada, is indeed remarkably similar to those of Australian indigenous peoples, from one in particular who worked in the field.
I don't think I'll involve myself again in Brexit debates. Daily Express/Mail and stable mate devotees are beyond reasoned debate. Not that there isn't issues with EU bureaucracy of course....
Unfortunately the referendum has been a bit of a Pandora's Box, and if anything it has legitimised many of the false and whacky concerns in the Brexit camp. I think it will take at least a generation for divisions to settle, whatever the outcome. If you're interested Brexit in the topic there's a raging thread in 'Take It Outside' with now over 28,000 posts! Mostly Remainers, but there are a few Brexiters winding the rest of us up.
As for the aborigines, I know so little about them, despite an interest in anthropolgy. I'm a bit more clued up on the indigenous people of Canada, and the issue they face. Probably quite a bit of overlap.
I don't think I'll involve myself again in Brexit debates. Daily Express/Mail and stable mate devotees are beyond reasoned debate. Not that there isn't issues with EU bureaucracy of course....