Florida_03

No nation ever existed without some sense of national destiny or purpose.

Manifest Destiny - a phrase used by leaders and politicians in the 1840s to explain continental expansion by the United States - revitalized a sense of "mission" or National Destiny for Americans.

What is the National Destiny for Australia?

Wilf

To be the land most free of dissent.

Florida_03

There is a lamentable lack of public debate on most issues. The trivial is sensationalised and the paramount trivialised.

So what of this?

Do we need a Noam Chomsky, who lived a life of dissent?

Wilf

I am sincere on this Florida. I really do think that Oz is far too conservative and the "whinger" thing is like an accepted form of day-to-day, low-level fascism. It is true that unproductive moaning is just that, unproductive, but what gets me is this: if you knock something (not with "In the UK, ....", I know that that grates, but just "Look, do you not think that it would be better if ...") there is almost always a defensive shield that comes up and you are seconds away from being dismissed as a "whinger". I sincerely think that Gandhi would be considered a whinger if he had been in Oz: "Don't come here telling us how to live our lives..." The hypocrisy comes in that when Ozzies are abroad, they loudly extoll the virtues of their country and love to tell the English that they come from God's country and so on, and how do you put up with this weather, and why does nobody talk to you on the tube [who the hell talks to you on Oz buses and trains?] (and end it with "mate", just to soften the knock) and the poms, who are generally reticent people, just smile and nod, and even, poor sods, agree, because they are reared to hate their country and think everywhere else is better. On this last point, when I think of what great things England has done, it makes me genuinely upset that the English are encouraged, from birth, to think so little of it and that to do otherwise is "little Englander" behaviour. Just look at that: we have the phrase "Little Englander" to knock those who celebrate England, you have the phrase "whinger" to stifle anyone who knocks Oz. Does it not tell you something?

Florida_03

You have not mentioned the recent term "Un-Australian" which I find highly offensive.

I can only guess that there is a general lack of national glue bonding the nation to a common vision of where it came from, where it is and where it is going to be.

There is a confusion of our past and this is by itself understandable given the way Australia has formed. As I have stated before, I have no convict ties and have personally never met anyone who has. My paternal grandparents- and thousands of others - came from Glasgow in the early 1920's. My maternal greatgrandparents were English. I have Scottish born Aunts and uncles but Australian parents. So my definition of being Australian has nothing to do with the early colonial history and I feel no bond to that era.

I suspect that I am like a great many. This issue of a lack of attachment to the country must result in an attachment to, or national sense of things that have less to do with prior national actions and more to do with more modern achievements.

The Anzacs, the natural beauty of the country, and sporting achievments are the some of the things, I guess that Australians (whoever they are) can hang their patriotic hats on.

So they talk it up big, it is all they have, the knocking of knockers is understandable. You knock Australia, the place, or their recent achievements and you knock their national pride. We have no wars of independence, no Trafagars, no Waterloos, no Civil wars, no great struggles, no great defining moments.

Australians are like children growing up.

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

I don't know if they will ever grow up, and given the present lot of political spivs and media toads feeding them bull, I don't hold out much hope.

Wilf

Excellent and fascinating. You really strike me as someone looking for truth, however hard it may be if/when you find it, and that is something of great value, even if it does not make your life easy.

I will continue this discussion, even though I feel unkind doing so, because it is of great importance and is very interesting to me, so please excuse anyhting that sounds less than complimentary to Oz. I could write a book of essays about the shortcomings of the UK, but I find that the general population carry on such a daily verbal suicidal attack every day that I am sure the UK can destroy itself without my help.

Your point "Australians are like children growing up.": as they say, you take the words out of my mouth. The Ozzies have a tendency to say "We are as good as any country in the world", and yet I am left wondering why that should be acceptable. It strikes me as impatient, greedy, and immature. How could it be that a country just a few hundred years old, that has yet to have its days of world leading greatness, could be the equal of past great nations? Are Australians so superior to other humans that they can shortcut the usual processes of growth and emerge as the equal of history's great nations so soon? If Ozzies just had problems acknowledging that there are things to learn from the UK, that would be understandable - not forgiveable, but understandable - because of the obvious need to develop a separate identity, etc., but I find Ozzies are generally prepared to dismiss ALL other countries' achievements as "Nothing special" and certainly nothing more than Oz achieves, even though this is so patently untrue in many cases. In the end, you are left with the impression that here is a people who are too arrogant. It is not all about age of course, but great countries take time to develop do they not, and Oz is just too young. It reminds me of a teenager who has just finished school and decides that he/she knows all there is to know. Oz needs to develop its own identity, yes, but why make it the identity of a spoilt child? There is no shame in being an intelligent young person is there? Better that than a pretend adult with false moustache. To be specific, Oz, if it is more patient and learns from those who have things to teach (not just the UK, but the great European nations who, like it or not, created the world we all live in now) could end up the best of all of them.

There is another aspect that makes me think of Oz as an ungrateful teenager. That is the issue of travelling to the UK and working. What is honourable about finding somewhere good enough to go to for a few years to earn some money, but not good enough to live in and rear kids? What is honourable about finding the UK useful for generating house deposits or paying off loans, but is full of "poms" and other undesirables? The best you could call this is duplicitous. The presence of people with short-term interest in the UK (and especially London) makes the place worse, not better (who ever made an effort to improve their surroundings and take an interest when the stay was short?), and so I find it a shameful thing to use the UK when it suits, call them "poms" when back home, and never consider it as a place good enough for "our kids." These poms on this forum have one thing that makes me like them all - I really know that they are going to Oz to make a life. They want to raise their kids there and they are minded to make it a better place. If it does not work out, that is almost always a surprising disappointment to them. That is why I prefer a refugee from Kosovo to the typical Ozzie on his/her tour of the UK. The refugee will build if they get the chance and that is what my old country needs.

welshpom

to not turn out like America.

renth

Galipoli was the great defining moment in Australian history.

welshpom

According to a book I've read on the subject, Galipoli wasn't the defining moment as such, it was the interpretation of Galipoli that changed Aus. Galipoli has evolved into something of a myth.

There are apparently far more worthy (of celebration and commemoration) battles that'd define what Galipoli is supposed to.

But hey, I'm no historian, I like walking on the beach (just back from a 7km stroll, in my shorts, on a quiet SA beach. Ahh).

jayr

My understanding is that Galipoli defined Australia as no longer being a colony of the British Empire but a nation in its own right, and yet the country still cligns on to its colonial history through maintaining the Queen as head of state. Australia is like a child who hasn't grown up yet and doesn't know what it wants to be. It is having a go at trying out other peoples' 'cultures' whether its British past, its place and role in Asia Pacific, 'borrowing' the culture of its indigineous people or sidling up to the US. In time it may well find its feet and its way forward in the world.

jah4reds

Australia (and NZ) are virtually alone in the 'Anglo-Saxon Western' world in having a slightly confused identity. The society is predominately Western and belong to a lose group of countries that make up the Western nations. However, it's close proximity to Asia - which is now emerging after a couple of centuries of allowing the West to dominate world events - has made several of Australia's prominent academics and politicians re-evaluate it's future direction in the world. The most well known is Paul Keating's drive to make closer ties with Asia. John Howard has decided to go in a completety revanchist direction and put Australia firmly back in the camp of Western nations.

The post cold war world is rapidly dividing into 3 main Civilizations: Western with USA as the leading power; Sinic with China as the leading power; and Islamic with no central dominate authority. To re-align Australia to the Sinic Civilization would require an entire cultural shift which simply isn't possible for Australia at the moment - it would have to treat China as the 'big brother' and economic and miltary protector of all local (i.e Asia-Pacific) interests. This could only occur after a massive increase of immigration from China, Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, etc, for China to accept it within the 'Sinic group'.

Personally, I feel it's still a more natural outcome for Australia to remain as part of the Western world. It's probable best outcome would be align itself as closely with the West as possible (and the USA as it is doing), but also attempt to build up stronger ties and a better understanding with Sinic (and Japanese) nations for trade purposes. It could become some sort of multi-cultural Western 'outpost' in the Asia-Pacific region.

I really good book on the subject, although *VERY* heavy reading is...
"The clash of civilizations and the remaking of world order" by Samuel P. Huntington.

If examples of defining moments for some of the leading countries are Pearl Harbour for USA, Dunkirk for UK, Hiroshima for Japan, Stalingrad for Russia - I'm quite happy Australia has not had any real defining momements.

AndyH.
"The times are a changin my friend..."

Florida_03

All excellent comments...more please...I'll be back in 4 hours and expect your homework done...

jayr

Ok

Australia faces some difficulties on defining its role and its destiny for a number fo reasons, not least due to its colonial past and lack of internationally recognisable events and achievements.

Australia will always struggle as a nation as it is really is a collection of highly populated East coast cities with a few million more spread out elsewhere (Perth, Adelaide etc.)

Australia has always relied on its immigration to build sufficient scale for economic and defence reasons - however, what is actually sustainable? It would not be unreasonable, given the country's climate and geography to assume that the current 20M is about the right amount for sustainability. This population, however is too spread out to make any connection with itself. This creates local markets, rather than national or international ones, which struggle to grow beyond the bounds imposed by the tyranny of distance. This results in a great difficulty in creating internationally competitive companies and a reliance on the unsustainable, but local, primary industries, i.e. what comes out of the ground.

The physical remoteness of the country and the lack of a place on the world stage creates an insular society, proud of it's limited achievements and willing to accept as its own anyone or anything that is successful and has once stepped inside its borders.

The country's charm is also its downfall. She'll be right? Well no. The optimistic, laid back approach to everything is endearing and what many would like to move to Oz for, this is not the stuff of a world leader however, nor the stuff of which a nation can be proud.

A nation not yet ready to cut the apron strings, Australia doesn't quite know what it should be or should do, and is a little afraid to put up its hand and ask.

Megalania

Its a nice quiet little insignificant backwater where nothing too nasty has happened since the British invasion. Wish everyone would just keep quiet about it - the rest of the world just might forget it exists.

jayr

They mostly have..